British Sprint Prizes Question
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British Sprint Prizes Question
Do the 18s and 20s get prizes at the British Sprints? Are there trophies? Or are they just competing in the Open?
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mharky - team nopesport
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Re: British Sprint Prizes Question
Just competing in the Open. There are many pages of NopeSport Discussion in the archives about the difficulties of awarding separate medals while also allowing them to compete with the M21s.
- NeilC
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Re: British Sprint Prizes Question
18s and 20s have to take their chances against the 21s in British Sprints! And with an 18 and two 20s in the top 6 of the Men’s race on Saturday, they seem to be up for that challenge! Would be nice though to recognise top 18 and top 20 British Sprint Champions.
- RoT
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Re: British Sprint Prizes Question
Thanks for the info.
It would be pretty simply to create separate class results lists for the 18/20s by just going through the finals in order, A,B,C.
All finishers in A would be placed above all finishers in B, and then C.
It's great that they get the opportunity to race against our seniors, who are truly world class. But we should also be rewarding their success in their own age groups.
It is quite odd not to have a British Champion for 18 and 20 in one of the disciplines.
It would be pretty simply to create separate class results lists for the 18/20s by just going through the finals in order, A,B,C.
All finishers in A would be placed above all finishers in B, and then C.
It's great that they get the opportunity to race against our seniors, who are truly world class. But we should also be rewarding their success in their own age groups.
It is quite odd not to have a British Champion for 18 and 20 in one of the disciplines.
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mharky - team nopesport
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Re: British Sprint Prizes Question
In a nutshell for one reason or another not all heats are equal (eg some top runners drop out, ranking links are not a good indicator of sprinting ability etc). As a result an M18 in heat A could have a really good run but not qualify whereas another M18 in heat C could have just an OK run but qualify for the A final, and as the only M18 in that final they become the Champion. Since the top juniors are always likely to be closer to the qualification cutoff than the top seniors (especially when the championships don't clash with a World Cup event) then qualification vagaries are always going to influence junior medallists.
Some solutions have been proposed such as allowing quotas of each age class into the A final, but each solution comes with other problems.
Some solutions have been proposed such as allowing quotas of each age class into the A final, but each solution comes with other problems.
- NeilC
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Re: British Sprint Prizes Question
Is anyone going to argue that the unambiguous British junior Sprint Champions for 2018 are:
W18. Niamh Hunter. WCOC
M18. Alastair Thomas WCOC
W20. Fiona Bunn. TVOC
M20. Aidan Rigby CLOK
??
W18. Niamh Hunter. WCOC
M18. Alastair Thomas WCOC
W20. Fiona Bunn. TVOC
M20. Aidan Rigby CLOK
??
- RoT
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Re: British Sprint Prizes Question
RoT, agreed.
NeilC, interesting point, I'd not fully appreciated how weak/strong heats could affect what juniors make the A-final.
I'd argue that it is more important to have a British Champion than it is that juniors race against the seniors. They have plenty of opportunities to do this through the year (e.g. Sprint Scotland). But we are denying 4 classes a national championship, and at a junior level as well. This is not acceptable in my opinion.
I believe there is a workable solution that allows for fairer qualification of juniors into a final, and also gives them the opportunity to race the seniors.
With only 18 "Open" runners making the final, space is clearly not the issue.
I'm going to draft some proposals in more detail with the aim of presenting them to whichever BOF group is in charge of such things. What group might that be?
NeilC, interesting point, I'd not fully appreciated how weak/strong heats could affect what juniors make the A-final.
I'd argue that it is more important to have a British Champion than it is that juniors race against the seniors. They have plenty of opportunities to do this through the year (e.g. Sprint Scotland). But we are denying 4 classes a national championship, and at a junior level as well. This is not acceptable in my opinion.
I believe there is a workable solution that allows for fairer qualification of juniors into a final, and also gives them the opportunity to race the seniors.
With only 18 "Open" runners making the final, space is clearly not the issue.
I'm going to draft some proposals in more detail with the aim of presenting them to whichever BOF group is in charge of such things. What group might that be?
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mharky - team nopesport
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Re: British Sprint Prizes Question
The rules were written many years ago when there were a lot less sprint events around (especially internationally) and the top elites needed something that could get close to the pressure of WOC/JWOC sprint heats.
The sprint rules have needed re-writing for several years now but BOF/E&CC have tried to cut down on rule writing / re-writing recently. With more and more senior elites opting to specialise in sprint it will get more difficult for the juniors to really compete so the time probably has come to separate them. A combined qualification for 18s and 20s would still work, the numbers are small enough that heat inequality is unlikely to cause problems for the best juniors (as is the case for the seniors now).
The sprint rules have needed re-writing for several years now but BOF/E&CC have tried to cut down on rule writing / re-writing recently. With more and more senior elites opting to specialise in sprint it will get more difficult for the juniors to really compete so the time probably has come to separate them. A combined qualification for 18s and 20s would still work, the numbers are small enough that heat inequality is unlikely to cause problems for the best juniors (as is the case for the seniors now).
- NeilC
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Re: British Sprint Prizes Question
mharky, send your proposal to Chris Phillips as chair of Events & Competitions Committee at eventsandcompetitionscommitteechair@bri ... ing.org.uk
The board are due to consider a proposed process for making rule changes when we meet next week, which should hopefully make it clearer what people should do when they have a good idea for a change.
The board are due to consider a proposed process for making rule changes when we meet next week, which should hopefully make it clearer what people should do when they have a good idea for a change.
British Orienteering Director | Opinions expressed on here are entirely my own, and do not represent the views of British Orienteering.
"If only you were younger and better..."
"If only you were younger and better..."
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Scott - god
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Re: British Sprint Prizes Question
I agree with Mharky.
Another thing to consider that 18s and 20s are final years of school, going to Uni, starting apprenticeships, first jobs - money is scarce. My suspicion is if you are looking for sponsorship then stating you are "British Champion" would carry more weight than "5th at the British Champs in the Open class".
Another thing to consider that 18s and 20s are final years of school, going to Uni, starting apprenticeships, first jobs - money is scarce. My suspicion is if you are looking for sponsorship then stating you are "British Champion" would carry more weight than "5th at the British Champs in the Open class".
JK
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Re: British Sprint Prizes Question
Agree with Mharky that ideally there should be 18 and 20 champions. But not sure that they should have separate races.
If they are separated out then good juniors will have to decide between entering M/W20 or M/WOpen. It isn't beyond the realms of possibility for an M/W20 to win the Open race; both Fiona and Aidan came 4th this year. If entries are split there will still be a debate as to who the true champions are. And the entry in some years will be low enough that it might be relatively simple to make the A final, removing exactly the type of qualification pressure we are trying to provide.
Better perhaps to slightly modify the current rules by requiring at least a minimum number of 18s and 20s in the Open A finals, if necessary by increasing the field to more than 18 people.
If they are separated out then good juniors will have to decide between entering M/W20 or M/WOpen. It isn't beyond the realms of possibility for an M/W20 to win the Open race; both Fiona and Aidan came 4th this year. If entries are split there will still be a debate as to who the true champions are. And the entry in some years will be low enough that it might be relatively simple to make the A final, removing exactly the type of qualification pressure we are trying to provide.
Better perhaps to slightly modify the current rules by requiring at least a minimum number of 18s and 20s in the Open A finals, if necessary by increasing the field to more than 18 people.
- Snail
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Re: British Sprint Prizes Question
Snail wrote:Better perhaps to slightly modify the current rules by requiring at least a minimum number of 18s and 20s in the Open A finals, if necessary by increasing the field to more than 18 people.
Another point to consider is that the winners of these same day sprint heat/final events have to balance qualifying with conserving energy for the final. A format in which some competitors get an easier route to the open final (eg via M20 only heats) or in which the top competitors don't really have to try too hard in the heats (eg by increasing the number qualifying) risks affecting the fairness or intrinsic nature of the event.
- NeilC
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Re: British Sprint Prizes Question
Just put all the 18/20s in the same heat. Then you can argue whether its a single-race 18/20 championship with the leaders later getting a go at the 21 final, or a "fair" qualifier.
(is there an echo in here?).
(is there an echo in here?).
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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Re: British Sprint Prizes Question
Having read through the relevant rules, I am submitting the following proposal:
A new class is created, Junior Open. This is a combined class of 18s and 20s. The number of athletes distributed in the heats and finals will be determined by the existing rules. The Junior Open class should run the same course as the Open class. The junior Open class should start after the Open class in both the qualification and final, with a suitable gap to prevent juniors catching seniors. Class results for the purposes of the British Championships should be calculated separately for 18s and 20s. Athletes can only win prizes for the class they have entered.
A new class is created, Junior Open. This is a combined class of 18s and 20s. The number of athletes distributed in the heats and finals will be determined by the existing rules. The Junior Open class should run the same course as the Open class. The junior Open class should start after the Open class in both the qualification and final, with a suitable gap to prevent juniors catching seniors. Class results for the purposes of the British Championships should be calculated separately for 18s and 20s. Athletes can only win prizes for the class they have entered.
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mharky - team nopesport
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Re: British Sprint Prizes Question
It's a good idea, but you should include the 16s...
The middle has accumulated a dogs breakfast of self contradictory rules from people throwing in proposals which look good in isolation but make no sense overall. Its already a mess having different classes for sprint & middle, so any change should make things more coherent.
The M18/20 course middle courses were shortened to 25min last year. No changes were made to the 16s, so by the rules they'd stay at 35 mins, longer than 18s. Our solution was to combine 16/18/20 (The same happened at the JK, it also may help with junior selections and fit with an additional argument about map scales).
Probably you need a special rule to ensure there are at least X 16s in the final, but you'd need that anyway for the 18s.
The middle has accumulated a dogs breakfast of self contradictory rules from people throwing in proposals which look good in isolation but make no sense overall. Its already a mess having different classes for sprint & middle, so any change should make things more coherent.
The M18/20 course middle courses were shortened to 25min last year. No changes were made to the 16s, so by the rules they'd stay at 35 mins, longer than 18s. Our solution was to combine 16/18/20 (The same happened at the JK, it also may help with junior selections and fit with an additional argument about map scales).
Probably you need a special rule to ensure there are at least X 16s in the final, but you'd need that anyway for the 18s.
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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