I was lucky enough to have an "open" punching start on all 3 days of the JK. It was the ultimate in luxury - literally turn up and go.
However it seemed very people intensive to administer, because punching starts were all in a separate lane. So at -3 a poor helper had to run across and fetch my descriptions, and at -1 another one had to go get my map. Plus, because we were set off on the half minute, the start interval in effect became 30 seconds which does seem a little tight for following?
Shouldn't we instead make "open" starts slightly less open and require runners to find a free start slot first (say, at enquiries) and then go to the newly allocated start time? It makes it slightly less convenient for the runner (but really, who can't wait for 10 minutes?) but much easier and fairer for the organisers.
BUT, I hear you say, the problem is that everyone else has a timed start (so doesn't need to punch) whereas the "open" runners do - so if they queue up together, it's going to get confusing about who needs to punch and who doesn't. Fair point, BUT back, should we not get rid of timed starts altogether and just let everyone punch? It makes things less stressful for the organisers and latecomers can be given a new start time. Is that not better?
Punching starts
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Re: Punching starts
I like the idea. You could give the people fitting in a timed start and put it in the system. This means that don't need to punch the start either. They just need to make sure they get to the start and the officials need to make sure they don't start early.
We have used this system, writing times on Bibs at the Lakes 5.
We have used this system, writing times on Bibs at the Lakes 5.
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Re: Punching starts
Yes very fair point that would probably be the easier way around..
- Arnold
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Re: Punching starts
Out of interest, why were you on a punching start?
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mharky - team nopesport
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Re: Punching starts
The punching start for all debate has been had many times before. For the last two (?) JKs this was applied to the Sprint for all non-elite classes - to deal with likely traffic problems on Good Friday - but reverted to a timed start this year for some reason. An argument against punching for all has been that it makes the job of the commentary team more difficult since they don't know exactly when a competitor started. It could 5-10s after their nominal start.
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Re: Punching starts
Is it not possible to wire the start punch into the system so that a total time turns up on the commentary computer?
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Mrs H - god
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Re: Punching starts
This is possible and has been done for example for the punching start lanes at the Scottish Six Days.Mrs H wrote:Is it not possible to wire the start punch into the system so that a total time turns up on the commentary computer?
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Re: Punching starts
Arnold wrote:should we not get rid of timed starts altogether and just let everyone punch? It makes things less stressful for the organisers and latecomers can be given a new start time. Is that not better?
It's only less stressful when the number of late/flexible starters is small. If you have a full start list and people arriving at random times because they know they'll get the start time changed, it becomes very stressful indeed. Especially if you have seeding rules to enforce.
It also introduces fairness problems with short intervals and the possibility of "choosing" who to start near.
That's partly why you need timed starts at important big events, whereas at smaller races punching start for all works just fine.
Getting a start at enquiries also isn't especially helpful, and it creates another job for organisers. Most "free" slots at big events at due to no-shows which enquiries can't know about. At small events there are plenty of free slots anyway.
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Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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Re: Punching starts
Another question - what should you do about late starters?
If start times are not adjusted, can you justify making them wait and arbitrarily long time for a free slot? Any "advantage" gained by starting close to someone else could also be achieved by starting on time and waiting at the start kite.
If start times are not adjusted, can you justify making them wait and arbitrarily long time for a free slot? Any "advantage" gained by starting close to someone else could also be achieved by starting on time and waiting at the start kite.
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Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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Re: Punching starts
Out of interest, why were you on a punching start?
Because I have 2 kids who are still smallish, and Abi was on Elite where the start times get decided very late > but I'd have been very happy to get a timed start the morning of
Getting a start at enquiries also isn't especially helpful, and it creates another job for organisers. Most "free" slots at big events at due to no-shows which enquiries can't know about. At small events there are plenty of free slots anyway
The extra job at enquiries would be more than compensated by saving 3+ people in the start lanes - and there were sufficient free slots on all courses even before no-shows
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Re: Punching starts
There won't be 3 people at the start whose tasks are solely to fetch control descriptions for punching starters. This is a trivial task that can be fitted in by anyone at a spare moment. It is very very much easier for the start team to cope with a punching start rather than an on-the-day allocated time.
THE stressful task when running a timed start is to ensure that everybody is slotted into the start lanes at the correct time, does not skip a line and starts on the allocated minute. They will have pre-printed lists of starters and at a big event such as the JK, just calling everybody on the list up on time and processing them through the lanes is enough of a task without coping with someone not on their list with a hand written time on their bib. They only have a few seconds before calling up the next minute's starters and there are you needing to start in this particular slot.
With a punching start this ceases to be an issue. It doesn't matter how fast or slowly you proceed through the start lane - and if the official is busy at the time you want to collect your descriptions then there is no problem with you waiting a while - your time doesn't start till you punch.
THE stressful task when running a timed start is to ensure that everybody is slotted into the start lanes at the correct time, does not skip a line and starts on the allocated minute. They will have pre-printed lists of starters and at a big event such as the JK, just calling everybody on the list up on time and processing them through the lanes is enough of a task without coping with someone not on their list with a hand written time on their bib. They only have a few seconds before calling up the next minute's starters and there are you needing to start in this particular slot.
With a punching start this ceases to be an issue. It doesn't matter how fast or slowly you proceed through the start lane - and if the official is busy at the time you want to collect your descriptions then there is no problem with you waiting a while - your time doesn't start till you punch.
- pete.owens
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Re: Punching starts
DM wrote:I like the idea. You could give the people fitting in a timed start and put it in the system. This means that don't need to punch the start either. They just need to make sure they get to the start and the officials need to make sure they don't start early.
We have used this system, writing times on Bibs at the Lakes 5.
But at L5D we use a punching start. This means you can have a fairly relaxed method of allocating starts. At the entries system they can identify a spare slot for you - which makes it easier on the start team. But the important difference is that the start team doesn't need to confirm that the time you claim to have been allocated is indeed the time put into the results system for your start.
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Re: Punching starts
Pete
I was commenting on a system that could be used when start times are allocated. I wasn't suggesting we use a non punching start at L5D,where as you say we use punching starts.
If you had heard the conversation tonight you would not be saying spotting people in is simple!
Why do we overcomplicate things.....
I was commenting on a system that could be used when start times are allocated. I wasn't suggesting we use a non punching start at L5D,where as you say we use punching starts.
If you had heard the conversation tonight you would not be saying spotting people in is simple!
Why do we overcomplicate things.....
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Re: Punching starts
graeme wrote:At small events there are plenty of free slots anyway.
You've clearly never stood in a fifteen-minute-plus start queue for a turn-up-and-go London Park Race.
(I'm planning to trial a "take a ticket" self-service start time allocation system at Barnes Common this summer.)
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Scott - god
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Re: Punching starts
For busy, or moderately busy, events, I think the best system is to allocate start times (so allowing for seeding if required), but then actually use a punching start - which I think is what L5D are doing. Competitors know when they are scheduled to start, so can prepare & warm up effectively. Start officials can still tick people off, but this is mainly to check people are starting at broadly the right time, so avoiding duplications from open/late starters. As the punching record in the start box is the primary check, they don't have to be overly worried if they miss someone or whether the competitor has the right e-card. Late / open starts just slot in where there are gaps. From a systems perspective, all competitors operate in the same way. I am not sure we should be giving up some of these advantages just because it isn't ideal for the commentary team!
I hate those events where there is a 20-30 minute queue, or "block" starts where the same thing can occur, as on cold / wet days it can be impossible to be properly warmed up for when you actually start. Sometimes you can agree with the person behind you in the queue that when you get to say -15 you will go off and warm up, and return to the same place 10 minutes later. But if the majority want to do this the queue quickly becomes chaotic!
I hate those events where there is a 20-30 minute queue, or "block" starts where the same thing can occur, as on cold / wet days it can be impossible to be properly warmed up for when you actually start. Sometimes you can agree with the person behind you in the queue that when you get to say -15 you will go off and warm up, and return to the same place 10 minutes later. But if the majority want to do this the queue quickly becomes chaotic!
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