Someone send me a link to this article on the BAOC website.
http://baoc.info/news/2018/01/15/Planni ... -Beginners
I thought it was spot on.
What do you think? Time to replace 'Long Orange/Red' with 'Long Yellow'?
Colour coded system - no good for adult beginners?
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Re: Colour coded system - no good for adult beginners?
I agree - the colour-coded system is great for juniors but less so for adults. I started with a red course and then moved on to green at my next event (and got badly lost!) but at the time I was a reasonable navigator and not a runner at all; someone who's into running would want a longer, easier course to start with. Of course, red courses vary: I had a look at the one I ran (from back in 1987, when you had to mark up the map as well) and that was definitely at the hard end of red. One I planned myself, many years later, was more of the standard BAOC talked about except for one or two of the later controls.
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Re: Colour coded system - no good for adult beginners?
Don't agree; don't forget this article is aimed at military events with no white or yellow courses.
A long yellow might be fine for first run, but if they are interested they will wish to progress. Where to? Orange is too short, TD4 or 5 too difficult. There is a risk that abandoning long orange in favour of long yellow will get more people to two events, but less progressing.
I would hope Long orange is interesting enough for people to do three or four before needing to progress and can often be planned by adding no more than three or four controls to orange, so can be truly TD3 without too much effort.
We always try to plan a long orange, but also have a policy of allowing 2nd runs for £1, so I think the answer for an adult beginner is to suggest they try the yellow on their first outing to get familiar with the map scale and conventions, followed by orange or long orange.
A long yellow might be fine for first run, but if they are interested they will wish to progress. Where to? Orange is too short, TD4 or 5 too difficult. There is a risk that abandoning long orange in favour of long yellow will get more people to two events, but less progressing.
I would hope Long orange is interesting enough for people to do three or four before needing to progress and can often be planned by adding no more than three or four controls to orange, so can be truly TD3 without too much effort.
We always try to plan a long orange, but also have a policy of allowing 2nd runs for £1, so I think the answer for an adult beginner is to suggest they try the yellow on their first outing to get familiar with the map scale and conventions, followed by orange or long orange.
Last edited by PG on Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Colour coded system - no good for adult beginners?
SeanC wrote:What do you think? Time to replace 'Long Orange/Red' with 'Long Yellow'?
Probably not. Certainly time to stop putting orange/red controls in trenches in bracken. But a decent TD3 course with routechoice (including the option to cut through terrain instead of following line features) and controls that are easily found from an obvious attackpoint, should be suitable for runners that have an inkling of an interest in acquiring a new set of skills.
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Re: Colour coded system - no good for adult beginners?
I agree that there's a lack of exciting, appropriate courses for adult beginners.
BAOC observe that the long orange is planned with TD4/5 controls and doesn't meet the spec. So its too hard. That's the main problem.
The reason is that planners don't make the effort for very small numbers. After 20-odd years that's not going to change. And its a double problem because doing a course with only 2-3 people is no fun for participants either.
Perhaps the answer is to have events branded as serious competitions, but with courses only up to TD3. 3-4 events, well marketed, early in the season, would be enough to have people ready to progress. If regular orienteers came, there would be a good atmosphere too. It works for urban.
Thinking of the event I did this week (NOC, Bestwood), the planner did a great job setting up interesting route choice legs. But it would have been just as good if the controls had been at the path-junction attack points rather than on a nebulous "TD5-feature" 30m over-there in the brambles.
BAOC observe that the long orange is planned with TD4/5 controls and doesn't meet the spec. So its too hard. That's the main problem.
The reason is that planners don't make the effort for very small numbers. After 20-odd years that's not going to change. And its a double problem because doing a course with only 2-3 people is no fun for participants either.
Perhaps the answer is to have events branded as serious competitions, but with courses only up to TD3. 3-4 events, well marketed, early in the season, would be enough to have people ready to progress. If regular orienteers came, there would be a good atmosphere too. It works for urban.
Thinking of the event I did this week (NOC, Bestwood), the planner did a great job setting up interesting route choice legs. But it would have been just as good if the controls had been at the path-junction attack points rather than on a nebulous "TD5-feature" 30m over-there in the brambles.
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Re: Colour coded system - no good for adult beginners?
.PG wrote:A long yellow might be fine for first run, but if they are interested they will wish to progress. Where to? Orange is too short, TD4 or 5 too difficult.
A score course. Score is easy to plan and perfect for the progressing second time out adult newbie. Guarenteed an hour of fun without a dispiriting DSQ/Retired, or returning after 20 minutes. We do score courses at almost all our weekend events now for this reason.
Just to pick up on a couple of Graeme's points
"The reason is that planners don't make the effort for very small numbers. After 20-odd years that's not going to change. And its a double problem because doing a course with only 2-3 people is no fun for participants either."
I agree - and that's probably why red/long orange is a rare course. However long yellow (perhaps given a different name) is an easy sell to adult beginners. With Facebook and other social media, publicity is much easier now than 20 years ago. Just look at what TVOC are doing. Such a course could get 50-100 runners with reasonable marketing, particularly through Facebook.
"Perhaps the answer is to have events branded as serious competitions, but with courses only up to TD3. 3-4 events, well marketed, early in the season, would be enough to have people ready to progress. If regular orienteers came, there would be a good atmosphere too. It works for urban."
Yes - this could work I agree. But it's probably less overall effort for clubs to put on a long yellow at their normal events where they have done all the hard work with mapping, permissions etc. The normal forest events are often in the most attractive areas for a TD2 run/low stress navigation event.
Last edited by SeanC on Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Colour coded system - no good for adult beginners?
Maroc and Gramp have had a combined series of Forest Sprints for several years. One course, TD3, winning time about 15-18 minutes. Get a decent turn-out and hellish hard competition at the top end! Usually held Wednesday evenings late April onwards taking advantage of lighter nights
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Re: Colour coded system - no good for adult beginners?
Actually thinking about it, some of us, myself included, are guilty of thinking of all adult beginners as the same in these discussions.
They're not obviously. There's definitely a spectrum for newcomers of different physical and technical skill levels. But a traditional colour coded event, doesn't cover the full spectrum. See if you agree with these descriptions of suitable courses for adult newcomers (high technical ability = high for newcomers, can pick it up quickly).
Low physical ability/high technical ability: orange, possibly light green.
Low physical ability/low technical ability: white/yellow.
High physical ability/high technical ability: long orange, possibly blue.
High physical ability/low technical ability: No suitable course.
That might explain my anecdotal observation at our events that "newcomers" are more likely to return if they've done orienteering at school, because they are likely to have moderate to high technical ability, find a course suitable for them, enjoy it and return for a second event.
They're not obviously. There's definitely a spectrum for newcomers of different physical and technical skill levels. But a traditional colour coded event, doesn't cover the full spectrum. See if you agree with these descriptions of suitable courses for adult newcomers (high technical ability = high for newcomers, can pick it up quickly).
Low physical ability/high technical ability: orange, possibly light green.
Low physical ability/low technical ability: white/yellow.
High physical ability/high technical ability: long orange, possibly blue.
High physical ability/low technical ability: No suitable course.
That might explain my anecdotal observation at our events that "newcomers" are more likely to return if they've done orienteering at school, because they are likely to have moderate to high technical ability, find a course suitable for them, enjoy it and return for a second event.
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Re: Colour coded system - no good for adult beginners?
SeanC wrote:Actually thinking about it, some of us, myself included, are guilty of thinking of all adult beginners as the same in these discussions.
They're not obviously. .
I've been saying this for ages too. And in fact the army article presumes some familiarity with OS maps whereas many adult beginners (spouses of orienteers or parents of kids who've come in through school) have no background of maps or compasses.
Both PG and Neil C below assume some degree of map and compass skills in their beginner, but its not easy to cut through terrain if you don't know how to set a map and follow a bearing you cant find a control on a knoll from a nearby attack point if you don't know the wee brown blob on the map is a knoll (or even wtf a knoll is!)
And I've said this before too (mostly in relation to juniors but it works for seniors too) Orange is probably the most variable of the courses you'll come across as a developing orienteer due to differences in interpretation by planners and if I'm honest poor controlling. I've seen Orange courses that were TD 2 and Orange courses that were borderline TD 5 in parts. Long yellow or something similar sounds about right.
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Re: Colour coded system - no good for adult beginners?
Out of interest does anyone know the history of the colour coded system? Who invented it, when and why?
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Re: Colour coded system - no good for adult beginners?
andypat wrote:but its not easy to cut through terrain if you don't know how to set a map and follow a bearing you cant find a control on a knoll from a nearby attack point if you don't know the wee brown blob on the map is a knoll
Which means it's important to teach beginners more than how to set a map & follow a bearing.... teach contours and terrain visulization.... actually there's not many places around in the UK where you actually 'need' a compass... most have enough contour details to use that and many forests have an obvious 'north' direction.....
Go orienteering in Lithuania......... best in the world:)
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Re: Colour coded system - no good for adult beginners?
SeanC wrote:Out of interest does anyone know the history of the colour coded system? Who invented it, when and why?
I think it was Tony Thornley, back in the late seventies, in the NW.
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Re: Colour coded system - no good for adult beginners?
I think this is in two parts: army events and events in general.
Having been to many army events, it's clearly a problem that the "easy" course can be too hard for many soldiers, for the reasons outlined, and I agree that BAOC should consider adding something like a very long Yellow as an option. This would be a suitable compromise in better meeting the needs of soldiers.
As far as events in general are concerned, personally speaking I think the colour-coded system is excellent, and it's a great pity that the colour badge system is now deprecated (at least as far as BO is concerned). I started with Orange, got the badge standard at three events, ditto Light Green and Green, and then found my level at Blue.
During my time as an M21 in Hungary I found it a pity that they didn't use the colour-coded system there - the age-class system seems inadequate for smaller, local events.
Do "normal" orienteering events need TD2 adult courses? The answer seems obviously to be Yes, but experience suggests otherwise - in my patch all efforts over the years to entice runners with such courses seem to have failed - it's generally true, I think, that the type of runner who is willing to cross over does recognise that O is a navigational sport and therefore gets stuck in with an Orange (or longer, harder) course. Having said that, the popularity of street-O, and the sheer volume of new runners, suggest that clubs should continue to experiment from time to time with formats that might attract runners.
Having been to many army events, it's clearly a problem that the "easy" course can be too hard for many soldiers, for the reasons outlined, and I agree that BAOC should consider adding something like a very long Yellow as an option. This would be a suitable compromise in better meeting the needs of soldiers.
As far as events in general are concerned, personally speaking I think the colour-coded system is excellent, and it's a great pity that the colour badge system is now deprecated (at least as far as BO is concerned). I started with Orange, got the badge standard at three events, ditto Light Green and Green, and then found my level at Blue.
During my time as an M21 in Hungary I found it a pity that they didn't use the colour-coded system there - the age-class system seems inadequate for smaller, local events.
Do "normal" orienteering events need TD2 adult courses? The answer seems obviously to be Yes, but experience suggests otherwise - in my patch all efforts over the years to entice runners with such courses seem to have failed - it's generally true, I think, that the type of runner who is willing to cross over does recognise that O is a navigational sport and therefore gets stuck in with an Orange (or longer, harder) course. Having said that, the popularity of street-O, and the sheer volume of new runners, suggest that clubs should continue to experiment from time to time with formats that might attract runners.
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