Phone app GPS-based "punching" is already available.
At SYO's evening event on 31st January, we tried Maprun, an Australian-developed app that allows you to set up an event with GPS controls. You upload an O-map to the app and it registers each control automatically when you are close enough. We tried it in the city-centre and it wasn't fully successful; we set the sensitivity to 10m and found a few controls close to buildings that wouldn't register. Next time we'll try wider sensitivity and controls on the lampposts, so not so close to buildings, but if we make the range too wide it will become a different type of orienteering - just navigate to "somewhere near the control".
Sporteering provides similar functionality, but doesn't yet allow the upload of an O-map. If you're into bike events, they are planning to use it for a Polaris event as part of the Sheffield Outdoor City weekend on 10th March. We are going to have another try with a score event the same day. We haven't finalised whether to use Maprun again or try Sporteering.
SIAC (contactless punching) is it catching on?
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Re: SIAC (contactless punching) is it catching on?
I think the concern is that the club / organiser would have made a conscious decision to disable a safety feature that is available to them.
Finding someone is the primary concern. Agree that more people either forget to download or get lost than immobilised. The forgetful can be checked by downloading the finish box and the lost usually turn up, particularly if they arrived by car. But when neither of these happen the chances are that someone is seriously injured; and are most likely to be somewhere in the vicinity of their course line. It is difficult to argue that the ability to start searching from their last verifiable location is invaluable.
You don't have to check every control - 6 or 7 boxes should be sufficient to identify the last course control punched. Then organise searching from there in the direction of their next control. It is unlikely that they will have punched other boxes elsewhere, but if you have enough personnel the other boxes can be checked in parallel with the search.
Clearly you take other steps as well, depending on the number of people available - trying their mobile phone; checking with club mates if their ability is unknown; circuits of surrounding roads by car; circuits of forest tracks by mountain bike; etc.
The possibility of litigation is a secondary concern. But if it happens, and you have consciously disabled a safety feature that could/would have made a significant difference, it becomes almost impossible to defend. So why risk exposure to it?
I guess the reason Sport Ident don't record contactless punches in the control boxes is either that it would slow down the punching process and remove some of the SIAC advantage, or perhaps that there are conflict issues with multiple cards passing in quick succession. Hopefully technology will advance sufficiently quickly that within a few years they can be recorded again.
Finding someone is the primary concern. Agree that more people either forget to download or get lost than immobilised. The forgetful can be checked by downloading the finish box and the lost usually turn up, particularly if they arrived by car. But when neither of these happen the chances are that someone is seriously injured; and are most likely to be somewhere in the vicinity of their course line. It is difficult to argue that the ability to start searching from their last verifiable location is invaluable.
You don't have to check every control - 6 or 7 boxes should be sufficient to identify the last course control punched. Then organise searching from there in the direction of their next control. It is unlikely that they will have punched other boxes elsewhere, but if you have enough personnel the other boxes can be checked in parallel with the search.
Clearly you take other steps as well, depending on the number of people available - trying their mobile phone; checking with club mates if their ability is unknown; circuits of surrounding roads by car; circuits of forest tracks by mountain bike; etc.
The possibility of litigation is a secondary concern. But if it happens, and you have consciously disabled a safety feature that could/would have made a significant difference, it becomes almost impossible to defend. So why risk exposure to it?
I guess the reason Sport Ident don't record contactless punches in the control boxes is either that it would slow down the punching process and remove some of the SIAC advantage, or perhaps that there are conflict issues with multiple cards passing in quick succession. Hopefully technology will advance sufficiently quickly that within a few years they can be recorded again.
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Re: SIAC (contactless punching) is it catching on?
Homer wrote:I think he means that it's a waste of your SIAC's battery if you use it on non-enabled controls. I have kept my old SI card for use at non contactless events so that the battery in my SIAC lasts longer. (Except now Marge has lost her card I'm having to use my SIAC all the time )
As it's the check that turns on air mode, you can always start the event and not dib the check box. If it's a small event with a proper dibbed punch to start the box won't been if the card isn't clear. I'm not sure what happens with a wafting start ... not had time to check it.
(disclaimer: don't take my word for it, check what really happens).
Homer wrote:BTW I still feel uncomfortable with mixed punching. I saved quite a bit of time at one control on Arthur's Seat where I was able to punch a crag foot by leaning over the top of the crag.
This is where it makes life harder for the planner, which as we started on makes life harder for the Safety person, brings us back to where we should be. SIAC makes a lot of things easier/faster for the competitor and these reasons are always mentioned. But there are more people involved in orienteering than competitors.
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Re: SIAC (contactless punching) is it catching on?
Snail wrote:I guess the reason Sport Ident don't record contactless punches in the control boxes is either that it would slow down the punching process and remove some of the SIAC advantage, or perhaps that there are conflict issues with multiple cards passing in quick succession. Hopefully technology will advance sufficiently quickly that within a few years they can be recorded again.
I think the real reason is the technology. In air-mode there is no communication from the card to the box, it's one way the other way. This allows fast wafting punching and several people to punch at the same time.
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Re: SIAC (contactless punching) is it catching on?
PG Wrote:
Phone app GPS-based "punching" is already available.
Hi PG ... it was remiss of me not to mention Maprun as my own club MAROC is also trialling the use of Maprun - we have a test course set up in Aboyne and are discussing its use for "Permanent" Orienteering Courses. I haven't tried it myself but it certainly looks to hold lots of potential. The challenge with GPS based "punching" is as you mention about the sensitivity. How close do we need competitors to be to the control to "punch". Pin punches / SI/Emit cards say 0cm, SIAC say 30cm, GPS we're looking at 5m to 10m at very best. This is not taking away from what Maprun is targeting, but I do feel that for higher level events we certainly want to still have runners closer to the control sites than 10m.
I firmly believe there is much untapped potential of using phone apps, which include closer virtual punching using BLE (Bluetooth low energy) and Bluetooth beacons, near real time upload of GPS track and punches (I understand that with Maprun you upload on completion), and safety aspects from knowing if the phone is no longer moving or if the runner simply is completely lost (emphasising this in response to the earlier posts re safety).
Others' thoughts?
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Re: SIAC (contactless punching) is it catching on?
iainwp wrote:Snail wrote:I guess the reason Sport Ident don't record contactless punches in the control boxes is either that it would slow down the punching process and remove some of the SIAC advantage, or perhaps that there are conflict issues with multiple cards passing in quick succession. Hopefully technology will advance sufficiently quickly that within a few years they can be recorded again.
I think the real reason is the technology. In air-mode there is no communication from the card to the box, it's one way the other way. This allows fast wafting punching and several people to punch at the same time.
That's my understanding too - and from an engineering point of view I think it's inevitable. It's easy for a (relatively) large box to transmit a powerful enough signal for a card to register at a distance, much harder for a tiny card to do so without a huge impact on battery life. (The other factors mentioned are probably true as well, but they could be overcome more readily as technology advances.)
I also wonder whether using an SIAC card on a non-SIAC event really flattens the battery any faster than using one of the other recent cards (i.e. the ones that flash). I agree that it's the "check" box that enables the SIAC function, but surely that's only if the organiser configured it to do so - which they wouldn't do on a non-SIAC event.
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Re: SIAC (contactless punching) is it catching on?
roadrunner wrote:
It's easy for a (relatively) large box to transmit a powerful enough signal for a card to register at a distance, much harder for a tiny card to do so without a huge impact on battery life.
SAICs do have an inbuilt radio which can broadcast punch data to a suitable receiver, for example the GPProjects Eider unit with SportIdent SRR - this is what was used for radio controls at WOC2015. Page 6 of http://orienteering.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/SI-Air-information-for-organisers_20150409.pdfsays:
5. SIAC radio. SIAC features an inbuilt radio to enable fully bidirectional data transfer and to deliver timing data for online transmission. SIAC's radio is disabled by default. The radio is activated by a special signal sent from the BS 7/8/11 Beacon. SIAC radio should only be activated if a receiver for SIAC's radio data is mounted nearby. Otherwise SIAC's power consumption is increased significantly. There are receiver dongles and the GSM modem “SIGSM-DN” with inbuilt receivers to communicate with SIAC's radio. The transmission distance of SIAC's radio is up to 10 metres.
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Re: SIAC (contactless punching) is it catching on?
Regarding litigation, the entire English legal system is based on the principle of “reasonableness”.
So I don’t think you have to force a whistle check because it is reasonable enough to tell people they should carry whistles without having to nanny them. And they could anyway throw them away right after the start. On the other hand it is not reasonable to plan a course straight down a dangerous crag ot to not warn competitors about non-obvious hazards. Etc.
The SIAC question seems a tiny bit harder, if you are actually disabling a function that might help. But then in the past there was no SI at all...so, I would argue that as long as you have some sort of plan in place if a competitor doesn’t turn up, like going to look for them along their course, that is reasonable enough. Although until we have any case law, we won’t know for sure.
So I don’t think you have to force a whistle check because it is reasonable enough to tell people they should carry whistles without having to nanny them. And they could anyway throw them away right after the start. On the other hand it is not reasonable to plan a course straight down a dangerous crag ot to not warn competitors about non-obvious hazards. Etc.
The SIAC question seems a tiny bit harder, if you are actually disabling a function that might help. But then in the past there was no SI at all...so, I would argue that as long as you have some sort of plan in place if a competitor doesn’t turn up, like going to look for them along their course, that is reasonable enough. Although until we have any case law, we won’t know for sure.
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Re: SIAC (contactless punching) is it catching on?
Although you could interrogate the units to see how far someone got, in practice it means deploying people to collect controls rather than to search for injured competitors.
Has anyone ever actually done that?
AFAIK, SIAC *does* leave a mark in the check and finish boxes, so the most important places to check are covered.
Has anyone ever actually done that?
AFAIK, SIAC *does* leave a mark in the check and finish boxes, so the most important places to check are covered.
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Re: SIAC (contactless punching) is it catching on?
iainwp wrote:As it's the check that turns on air mode, you can always start the event and not dib the check box. ...
And if the organisers are using the check box as the safety check to see who is still on the course ....?
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Re: SIAC (contactless punching) is it catching on?
Snail wrote:iainwp wrote:As it's the check that turns on air mode, you can always start the event and not dib the check box. ...
And if the organisers are using the check box as the safety check to see who is still on the course ....?
well, yes ... you see what a problem we create if we try hard enough ... with a punching start we would use the start box to see who had started, it's more guaranteed to be punched than a check or clear ... but no real guarantees unless there is a person guiding things.
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Re: SIAC (contactless punching) is it catching on?
In most cases Clear is more likely to be punched than either Check or Start, although occasionally someone will Clear, injure themselves in a warm-up, and not start.
And perhaps the organisers know that they forgot to clear down the Start box since the previous event?
We sometimes vary which of the three boxes we use as a safety check, depending on the exact layout / system at the start; whether everything has gone smoothly etc. And on occasions test against more than one box.
I think the lesson is that you should follow whatever process the organiser has put in place; don't make it awkward for them by saying "I've got a SIAC card, I want to do something different..."
And perhaps the organisers know that they forgot to clear down the Start box since the previous event?
We sometimes vary which of the three boxes we use as a safety check, depending on the exact layout / system at the start; whether everything has gone smoothly etc. And on occasions test against more than one box.
I think the lesson is that you should follow whatever process the organiser has put in place; don't make it awkward for them by saying "I've got a SIAC card, I want to do something different..."
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Re: SIAC (contactless punching) is it catching on?
We're getting a bit off topic now but it's very important... surely the check box is the key one from a safety point of view as it's the only one that is staffed to make sure everyone dibs it? Indeed isn't that what it's for as the start box won't work if you haven't cleared?
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Re: SIAC (contactless punching) is it catching on?
Snail wrote:I think the lesson is that you should follow whatever process the organiser has put in place; don't make it awkward for them by saying "I've got a SIAC card, I want to do something different..."
Quite right!!!!
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Re: SIAC (contactless punching) is it catching on?
In answer to the initial question SLOW uses mixed punching at all of its events, both Foot O and MTBO. Because of this we have given quite a lot of thought to the question of interrogating SI boxes in the case of a missing competitor. So maybe the first thing to note is that we have added a whole Appendix on the topic to our standard Risk Assessment folder.
On thing that struck us when considering the Missing Competitor Issue is that a lot of folks have a selective vision on it. Namely that a person can only be ‘missing in need of finding’ after courses close. If you have courses starting from 10am and courses closing at 3pm (say) you could have a junior on a short course reporting missing 2 or 3 hours before courses close. Retrieving the course boxes before staring a search would require a set of replacement boxes to be programmed before collecting in the old ones and putting new ones out - surely not practical. And then there is the question, how often have clubs resorted to interrogating SI boxes to find someone? I do not believe that SLOW ever has
So our process focuses on other approaches. One of these is around remote access. At present there only seems to be the one viable remote access system to SI boxes (as previously identified) and we have used this on occasion. I understand that other alternatives are in the pipeline but not yet up to scratch. But the advantage here is that this means information on competitors progress through a unit can be checked ‘real time’. So a strategically placed box can immediately tell the planner how far round a course one or more people have got to. Or even if controls can be collected early from part of the area
On thing that struck us when considering the Missing Competitor Issue is that a lot of folks have a selective vision on it. Namely that a person can only be ‘missing in need of finding’ after courses close. If you have courses starting from 10am and courses closing at 3pm (say) you could have a junior on a short course reporting missing 2 or 3 hours before courses close. Retrieving the course boxes before staring a search would require a set of replacement boxes to be programmed before collecting in the old ones and putting new ones out - surely not practical. And then there is the question, how often have clubs resorted to interrogating SI boxes to find someone? I do not believe that SLOW ever has
So our process focuses on other approaches. One of these is around remote access. At present there only seems to be the one viable remote access system to SI boxes (as previously identified) and we have used this on occasion. I understand that other alternatives are in the pipeline but not yet up to scratch. But the advantage here is that this means information on competitors progress through a unit can be checked ‘real time’. So a strategically placed box can immediately tell the planner how far round a course one or more people have got to. Or even if controls can be collected early from part of the area
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