On leg 2-3 you'd be swapping an extra 550m of running for 150m of swimming. For me no. Yes, just maybe, if your a slow runner and fast swimmer.
Me (ish)
5 min/k run = 2:45
30 min/k swim = 4:30
Starting to make sense?
6 min/k run = 3:18
20 min/k swim = 3:00
All approximate. And not taking into account that you're not dressed for the swimming bit.
I've only gone swimming once while orienteering and that was by accident as a junior. I tried to cross Blackwater river in the New Forest - it turned out to be a little deeper than I thought. Less likely to happen these days as the event would have been cancelled.
THE ROUTE
Moderators: [nope] cartel, team nopesport
Re: THE ROUTE
A few comments from those of us who were involved with the first event......
It has been a pleasure to work with the companies contracted to develop and deliver The Route.
We were contacted early on by the events management company and my SI guru club colleague and I had a very constuctive meeting at which we were fully briefed and were able to add suggestions about how the event could work. It was stressed from the word go that the aim was to involve the local clubs, at the very least with a club presence at the event.
We agreed to help with the SI on the day (the event used a programme developed for the format by SIUK) providing our computing equipment and SI cards and 2 people to man them. In addition, there were 2 of us to hand out info about the club and advise the competitors on strategy for score events.
The numbers were indeed lower than expected but there was a very high no-show rate. The benefit was that we were able to speak to every competitor. There were a few orienteers but the vast majority were newcomers and from within our club footprint. We gave everyone info about the club and our summer evening series and will be able to track if anyone who attended the event turns up.
On the day, everyone said how much they enjoyed it. There was one competitor, an orienteer, who was disappointed by the standard of the Route Breaker - a traditional score event. As aimed at adult beginners it was orange standard.
Someone has posted in this discussion thread that they might enter one of the other events. It isn't for experienced orienteers so don't unless you want, like one of our club mates, to try some different ie the Route Camp which is a star exercise with boot camp physical exercises every time you come back to the central point.
There were some learning points that came out, as you would expect for an new format event put on by any organisation, and these will be implemented for the next events - we were asked for our input. Our SI coordinator has been in contact with his opposite number in HAVOC.
All in all, it was a good experience and we would support the event should it continue.
It has been a pleasure to work with the companies contracted to develop and deliver The Route.
We were contacted early on by the events management company and my SI guru club colleague and I had a very constuctive meeting at which we were fully briefed and were able to add suggestions about how the event could work. It was stressed from the word go that the aim was to involve the local clubs, at the very least with a club presence at the event.
We agreed to help with the SI on the day (the event used a programme developed for the format by SIUK) providing our computing equipment and SI cards and 2 people to man them. In addition, there were 2 of us to hand out info about the club and advise the competitors on strategy for score events.
The numbers were indeed lower than expected but there was a very high no-show rate. The benefit was that we were able to speak to every competitor. There were a few orienteers but the vast majority were newcomers and from within our club footprint. We gave everyone info about the club and our summer evening series and will be able to track if anyone who attended the event turns up.
On the day, everyone said how much they enjoyed it. There was one competitor, an orienteer, who was disappointed by the standard of the Route Breaker - a traditional score event. As aimed at adult beginners it was orange standard.
Someone has posted in this discussion thread that they might enter one of the other events. It isn't for experienced orienteers so don't unless you want, like one of our club mates, to try some different ie the Route Camp which is a star exercise with boot camp physical exercises every time you come back to the central point.
There were some learning points that came out, as you would expect for an new format event put on by any organisation, and these will be implemented for the next events - we were asked for our input. Our SI coordinator has been in contact with his opposite number in HAVOC.
All in all, it was a good experience and we would support the event should it continue.
- O lady
- yellow
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Re: THE ROUTE
Spookster wrote:I think "uncrossable" or "cannot be crossed" on an ISOM map means illegal to cross.
I'm pretty sure that that is not generally the case. For example, there were plenty of people who obviously crossed the "uncrossable river" on the WOC Long last year without getting disqualified (and without anyone making much of a fuss about it, as far as I can tell).
British Orienteering Director | Opinions expressed on here are entirely my own, and do not represent the views of British Orienteering.
"If only you were younger and better..."
"If only you were younger and better..."
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Scott - god
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Re: THE ROUTE
Scott wrote:without anyone making much of a fuss about it, as far as I can tell).
Thierry wrote: It is an euphemism to say I didn't enjoy this leg so much. Some might think a good course is a course where you don´t feel comfortable and are under pressure all the time. I am not far to agree with that. But, in that case, it was a bit too much of gambling and guessing. It started with a non-mapped, but taped, electric wire in the south open field after the 1st control. A bit confusing, but it wasn´t my main concern. I thought the best runnability for this long leg was in the right side of the red line, but there was this “impassable” river to cross. Impassable, but not forbidden, as state the ISOM at the moment. I didn´t felt comfortable with this, still I took the risk. Swam a couple of meters, as the river was large and deep where I crossed, despite choosing a place where the black line was cut (probably only for a better legibility of the cliffs though). I was not the only one considering this option BUT I don´t think a good course should offer this kind of option. In my opinion, the impassable features should just be, like in sprint, forbidden to cross. And as far as I know, it will be like this in the new version of ISOM (alleluia!). I enjoy swimming, it is not the problem, but I don´t think orienteering should be about the one who dare to swim, or eventually climb the biggest cliff.It would have been so simple to put some “out of bound area” over the river to make it totally fair.
and unfortunately for TG's alleluia, it doesn't look like the new ISOM will have forbidden to cross symbols
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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Re: THE ROUTE
Good to hear some more insight from someone who was involved in the event.
I have to say that I initially saw the numbers and thought 'Blimey that's pretty bad'. But on reflection if almost all people involved were new to orienteering that is pretty good. It would be rare to get an event with that number of newcomers and this is a 'new' event type. It would be good to know what marketing had been done for the events and what they thought worked well - Do they think they did enough? I'm not sure I saw it in Trail Runner for example.
A few thoughts:
The 3 route events are spread quite far apart so I would guess that it might be unlikely that people will be traveling between them. Are the clubs in the region changing anything to make sure that there are suitable events / courses so that those that enjoyed the experience don't have to travel a long way to experience it again?
I personally think that with a bit of tweaking our 'standard' events can be as suitable to this market as the Route. It would take very little effort to have a mass start score course at the majority of level C events and above (I think I read one club was trialing this). Mass start score has some big pluses - You are not heavily penalised if you can't find a control; you can pick controls that match your ability and there will be a more social atmosphere afterwards.
Linked to the last point I think that the 'product' that orienteering clubs put on up and down the country every week is good. What we really need help with is marketing it and making sure that we accommodate newcomers and we do as much as possible that any person trying it for the first time leaves with a positive impression - (making sure they go out on the appropriate course, happy smiley people etc.)
I have to say that I initially saw the numbers and thought 'Blimey that's pretty bad'. But on reflection if almost all people involved were new to orienteering that is pretty good. It would be rare to get an event with that number of newcomers and this is a 'new' event type. It would be good to know what marketing had been done for the events and what they thought worked well - Do they think they did enough? I'm not sure I saw it in Trail Runner for example.
A few thoughts:
The 3 route events are spread quite far apart so I would guess that it might be unlikely that people will be traveling between them. Are the clubs in the region changing anything to make sure that there are suitable events / courses so that those that enjoyed the experience don't have to travel a long way to experience it again?
I personally think that with a bit of tweaking our 'standard' events can be as suitable to this market as the Route. It would take very little effort to have a mass start score course at the majority of level C events and above (I think I read one club was trialing this). Mass start score has some big pluses - You are not heavily penalised if you can't find a control; you can pick controls that match your ability and there will be a more social atmosphere afterwards.
Linked to the last point I think that the 'product' that orienteering clubs put on up and down the country every week is good. What we really need help with is marketing it and making sure that we accommodate newcomers and we do as much as possible that any person trying it for the first time leaves with a positive impression - (making sure they go out on the appropriate course, happy smiley people etc.)
- peteT
- white
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Re: THE ROUTE
Saxons have been putting on score courses at all their level C/B and Kent Orienteering League events since last summer. It was more for retention than recruitment after several newcomers moved on from summer introductory events to their first 'proper' forest orienteering event - and most of them didn't finish their course (light green).
A typical turnout is maybe half a dozen, which seems a miserably low number, but the return on effort is high (ie these are the people that most need looking after to grow the sport, plus it's easy to set up a score course). We've not tried promoting the score courses at mainstream level C/B events, but I think some basic easy promotions (eg just a small Facebook promotion) would also be well worth the effort (assume only 5 newcomers per event = 50 over a year).
Saxons and DFOK (and lot of other clubs I'm sure) also have score events aimed more at beginners in country parks etc with mostly easy controls and mass starts/finishes to create atmosphere. So more like 'The Route' events. These are well suited to summer of course, and personally I'm much happier doing an easy park score event in summer than being forced through man eating Kent brambles looking for bingo controls barely visible in the jungle.
Help with marketing? In case anyone is unaware, there is an orienteering Facebook publicity group to share ideas/experiences: https://www.facebook.com/groups/orienteeringpublicity/
I've emailed TrailPlus to suggest they join.
A typical turnout is maybe half a dozen, which seems a miserably low number, but the return on effort is high (ie these are the people that most need looking after to grow the sport, plus it's easy to set up a score course). We've not tried promoting the score courses at mainstream level C/B events, but I think some basic easy promotions (eg just a small Facebook promotion) would also be well worth the effort (assume only 5 newcomers per event = 50 over a year).
Saxons and DFOK (and lot of other clubs I'm sure) also have score events aimed more at beginners in country parks etc with mostly easy controls and mass starts/finishes to create atmosphere. So more like 'The Route' events. These are well suited to summer of course, and personally I'm much happier doing an easy park score event in summer than being forced through man eating Kent brambles looking for bingo controls barely visible in the jungle.
Help with marketing? In case anyone is unaware, there is an orienteering Facebook publicity group to share ideas/experiences: https://www.facebook.com/groups/orienteeringpublicity/
I've emailed TrailPlus to suggest they join.
- SeanC
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Re: THE ROUTE
I understand and recognise what O Lady is saying and I know she and her team will have done a great job on the day with her wonderful enthusiastic apporach - but I'd like to know a bit more about how this is being financed/marketed etc. Someone is making money out of it and it certainly won't be DEE. (I very much doubt it will be BOF either - and where money is concerned We are BOF!).
The numbers are extremely poor - I was getting more than double in my first MADO season (yes most of them newcomers but some of the occasional local orienteers who turned up became more committed and started planning/organising as a result). I think BOF gave me a £250 development grant and a bag of old Focus magazines.
The numbers are extremely poor - I was getting more than double in my first MADO season (yes most of them newcomers but some of the occasional local orienteers who turned up became more committed and started planning/organising as a result). I think BOF gave me a £250 development grant and a bag of old Focus magazines.
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Mrs H - god
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Re: THE ROUTE
Mrs H wrote:I understand and recognise what O Lady is saying and I know she and her team will have done a great job on the day with her wonderful enthusiastic apporach - but I'd like to know a bit more about how this is being financed/marketed etc. Someone is making money out of it and it certainly won't be DEE. (I very much doubt it will be BOF either - and where money is concerned We are BOF!).
The numbers are extremely poor - I was getting more than double in my first MADO season (yes most of them newcomers but some of the occasional local orienteers who turned up became more committed and started planning/organising as a result). I think BOF gave me a £250 development grant and a bag of old Focus magazines.
Thanks Mrs H. I can't comment on any detail of the overall marketing, etc. I know that the Forestry Commission at Delamere were advertising the event and I wonder if that helped in attracting such a lot of locally based people.
We said from the word go that we were prepared to offer our help pro bono as a chance to market the club and get to engage with people but if the organising companies felt that they wished to make a donation to the club, it would be much appreciated. They have indeed done that.
We are seeing some of the people who took part on Saturday engage on our facebook page so hopeful that they will turn up at our summer series starting after Easter.
- O lady
- yellow
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- Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2010 6:13 pm
Re: THE ROUTE
SeanC wrote:Saxons have been putting on score courses at all their level C/B and Kent Orienteering League events since last summer. It was more for retention than recruitment after several newcomers moved on from summer introductory events to their first 'proper' forest orienteering event - and most of them didn't finish their course (light green).
A typical turnout is maybe half a dozen, which seems a miserably low number, but the return on effort is high (ie these are the people that most need looking after to grow the sport, plus it's easy to set up a score course). We've not tried promoting the score courses at mainstream level C/B events, but I think some basic easy promotions (eg just a small Facebook promotion) would also be well worth the effort (assume only 5 newcomers per event = 50 over a year).
Saxons and DFOK (and lot of other clubs I'm sure) also have score events aimed more at beginners in country parks etc with mostly easy controls and mass starts/finishes to create atmosphere. So more like 'The Route' events. These are well suited to summer of course, and personally I'm much happier doing an easy park score event in summer than being forced through man eating Kent brambles looking for bingo controls barely visible in the jungle.
Help with marketing? In case anyone is unaware, there is an orienteering Facebook publicity group to share ideas/experiences: https://www.facebook.com/groups/orienteeringpublicity/
I've emailed TrailPlus to suggest they join.
I agree with all your points Sean. It was interesting that a couple of people who had read our leaflet on Saturday came up to me afterwards and said that they had worked out that the orange course would be a good place for them to start. What I didn't say in my other post, although obvious if you look at the results, is that by far the majority of the participants were females and, even though they may have entered separately, they were going round together.
- O lady
- yellow
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Re: THE ROUTE
I think clubs should be looking for financial compensation for their skills for events like this. I have done work through my club for a commercial organisation before and the club were paid for our time/expertise (not the individual but the club were paid), if there isn't any money then the commercial organisation are just taking advantage of our rather extensive knowledge and skill at putting on events...
Andrew Dalgleish (INT)
Views expressed on Nopesport are my own.
Views expressed on Nopesport are my own.
- andy
- god
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Re: THE ROUTE
I have no idea how widely known the following is, but it should be, and it serves as an interesting comparison......
TVOC have run orienteering as part of National Trust's Waddesdon Manor spring half term activity week for the last 2 years.
https://waddesdon.org.uk/whats-on/orienteering/
https://waddesdon.org.uk/whats-on/orienteering-score-event/
In 2016 1,397 (that's not a typo) children took part over the 9 days. This year we got a few more (I don't have the exact figures).
A couple of things from the internet (or just Google it)
http://www.getbucks.co.uk/whats-on/family-kids-news/took-orienteering-challenge-waddesdon-manor-12610642
http://www.mummyonabudget.co.uk/2016/02/orienteering-at-waddesdson-manor.html
I will stand corrected but I suspect BO gave no special help.
TVOC have run orienteering as part of National Trust's Waddesdon Manor spring half term activity week for the last 2 years.
https://waddesdon.org.uk/whats-on/orienteering/
https://waddesdon.org.uk/whats-on/orienteering-score-event/
In 2016 1,397 (that's not a typo) children took part over the 9 days. This year we got a few more (I don't have the exact figures).
A couple of things from the internet (or just Google it)
http://www.getbucks.co.uk/whats-on/family-kids-news/took-orienteering-challenge-waddesdon-manor-12610642
http://www.mummyonabudget.co.uk/2016/02/orienteering-at-waddesdson-manor.html
I will stand corrected but I suspect BO gave no special help.
- Tim
- yellow
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Re: THE ROUTE
Tim wrote:TVOC
There can be no doubt that what TVOC have done in recent years is phenomenal, but there can't be many clubs that could keep up that kind of effort.
I guess there comes a time where a club's members might reasonably ask whether the energy of the club's movers and shakers ought to be more focused on catering for existing members rather than providing family activities for the general public. To be fair to TVOC though, they seem to do pretty well in both respects.
My own club went through a period of putting on a lot of taster-type events, schools sessions etc which resulted in rapid growth. This in turn put a lot more demands on the people in the club who made things happen. Now the priority, understandably, is much less on recruiting new members and more on developing and retaining the ones we have, and who have been to events reasonably often. This has resulted in a reduction in membership, but overall a stronger, more capable club, with more still to come.
In most sports, the challenge that clubs have is to entice people to join them as opposed to some other local club. In orienteering we have the problem of getting people to understand what the sport is before we can even start thinking of whether they'll join our club.
That's why I think it's so good that BO are working with external providers to stage these taster events. If these started to become popular, maybe clubs would have to worry less about creating the demand, as that will be done for us. Probably won't happen in my lifetime but you have to start somewhere!
- Sunlit Forres
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Re: THE ROUTE
There also comes a point after lots of concerted publicity, where the "pool" of relative newcomers is so large (those that know about the club or have been to one or two events), that less advertising is actually needed. We're seeing that at TVOC now - all I have to do is add a Facebook event and within a couple of hours, there are 40 or so people saying they're "interested" or "going" to the event. Admittedly, that is a result of lots of publicity over the past four years.
Tim is right - we had no input from BO re. our Waddesdon week. That week was, incidentally, additional to our usual range of Level D and C races - it's too good an opportunity to miss, when we expose that number of children (and indeed parents) to orienteering over the week. The NT staff at Waddesdon estimated that 3,000 people were exposed to orienteering over the week - including parents etc.
Re. The Route, whilst getting that number of newcomers is obviously great, and it's great to hear the local club were able to talk to them all - I still would have hoped for more. Our marketing at TVOC is now 90% Facebook only, and so far this year we've averaged 85 IND entries per event - that's for a publicity expenditure of £35 per race. We have a mailing list of almost 1,000 relative newcomers (Mailchimp; collected from everyone at events) and I use that to keep plugging our races to get people back (which is an essential part of marketing: repeat business and all that!). The target market for The Route is the same (presumably) as one of my target markets - runners aged 20-45. Around half our IND entries are from that target market and social media is by far the best way to target them (that's based on Sport England research). So I would have hoped The Route marketing team would have undertaken an extensive social media campaign - I assume their marketing budget is (much?) greater than mine, so unless the event wasn't targeted perfectly, I perhaps would have hoped for more runners attending.
But having said that, I think it's a great initiative to encourage more runners to cross over into orienteering - anything that raises our profile is well worth doing. If The Route ever comes to our area, I'd insist they gave us an eyecatching stand, so we could hand out flyers, details of our Facebook page and collect everyone's email addresses, to stay in touch. Let's hope those competitors at Delamere go along to some local O races, to make it all worthwhile for DEE. I might give the Thames Chase one a try too!
Tim is right - we had no input from BO re. our Waddesdon week. That week was, incidentally, additional to our usual range of Level D and C races - it's too good an opportunity to miss, when we expose that number of children (and indeed parents) to orienteering over the week. The NT staff at Waddesdon estimated that 3,000 people were exposed to orienteering over the week - including parents etc.
Re. The Route, whilst getting that number of newcomers is obviously great, and it's great to hear the local club were able to talk to them all - I still would have hoped for more. Our marketing at TVOC is now 90% Facebook only, and so far this year we've averaged 85 IND entries per event - that's for a publicity expenditure of £35 per race. We have a mailing list of almost 1,000 relative newcomers (Mailchimp; collected from everyone at events) and I use that to keep plugging our races to get people back (which is an essential part of marketing: repeat business and all that!). The target market for The Route is the same (presumably) as one of my target markets - runners aged 20-45. Around half our IND entries are from that target market and social media is by far the best way to target them (that's based on Sport England research). So I would have hoped The Route marketing team would have undertaken an extensive social media campaign - I assume their marketing budget is (much?) greater than mine, so unless the event wasn't targeted perfectly, I perhaps would have hoped for more runners attending.
But having said that, I think it's a great initiative to encourage more runners to cross over into orienteering - anything that raises our profile is well worth doing. If The Route ever comes to our area, I'd insist they gave us an eyecatching stand, so we could hand out flyers, details of our Facebook page and collect everyone's email addresses, to stay in touch. Let's hope those competitors at Delamere go along to some local O races, to make it all worthwhile for DEE. I might give the Thames Chase one a try too!
- MikeShires
- white
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- Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2013 8:05 pm
Re: THE ROUTE
Putting on event to attract new people is hard work and does take effort from probably a few committed club members.
One of the aims should be to bring people into the club and developing them as volunteers so that they can take up some of the effort and make the development effort sustainable.
Our experience so far show that the new people coming in are very enthusiastic and can certainly relate to the newcomers far more than us jaded folk, they just need to be asked to help and made to feel welcome.
As with TVOC we collect emails and have around 1400 people that we directly email about events. At the moment this is mainly school kids and their parents. Some of whom may have only come to one or two events but may come back. What has been nice this year is that more parents are going out on a course as well and as others see them heading out on a course they think 'maybe next time...'
One of the aims should be to bring people into the club and developing them as volunteers so that they can take up some of the effort and make the development effort sustainable.
Our experience so far show that the new people coming in are very enthusiastic and can certainly relate to the newcomers far more than us jaded folk, they just need to be asked to help and made to feel welcome.
As with TVOC we collect emails and have around 1400 people that we directly email about events. At the moment this is mainly school kids and their parents. Some of whom may have only come to one or two events but may come back. What has been nice this year is that more parents are going out on a course as well and as others see them heading out on a course they think 'maybe next time...'
- peteT
- white
- Posts: 53
- Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:42 pm
Re: THE ROUTE
Spookster wrote:I think "uncrossable" or "cannot be crossed" on an ISOM map means illegal to cross. The lake at Bentley was clearly mapped with the 301 Lake symbol, and like the 304 River symbol, it has a black edge. I have always understood that both must not be crossed
No
- Big Jon
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