My club (Moravian) qualified for the final yesterday. Given that the final is about 600 miles away I can't see us getting a team of 25+ runners down to Devon given that we would have no realistic chance of winning against more local clubs who can field far bigger teams. Are there any other clubs in this situation?
While it's impossible to create a totally level playing field, this sets me wondering if the qualifying heats could be aimed at maximum participation, helped by the easier logistics. This would benefit ambitious, well-balanced clubs who can perform well across a large cross section of age classes, and then have the final for much smaller "select" teams (eg 3 men and 3 women).
ESOC (who are such a club) had a lot of runners at Tentsmuir but didn't enter the CSC because they knew they would not be able to attend the final. This unfortunately diluted the quality of the Scottish heat as their runners weren't included in the points calculations.
A system like this would mean a club comprised mainly of good elites wouldn't qualify for the final, and equally a club that doesn't have an elite contingent, while able to qualify, would be unlikely to win the final, but would have a better chance of getting team to it. Over the piece it would still mean all elements of participating clubs would be able to contribute. A bit like Arsenal, Man City etc giving fringe players a run out in the earlier rounds of the FA cup and then bringing out the big guns at the business end of the competition.
Even though I'd never stand to benefit myself, I'd be happy for my club to subsidise a team of 6 to travel to a national final if they were representing the club. To expect the club to subsidise 25 or more, or even for 25 to travel all that distance is unreasonable - and many members would be unable to afford the time/expense anyway.
Only an idle thought though - it's a great competition, really good for developing team spirit within clubs. Well done all the clubs that staged events and those who took part.
Compass Sport Cup
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Re: Compass Sport Cup
I do agree with the philosophy, perhaps half the size of team needed for the final. Not everyone can afford such a long journey as well. The scoring system means that larger teams with non-scoring runners are rewarded.
Another way to do it is to change the scoring system so there are less stringent requirements to have a spread of demographics.
Incidentally, google says there are flights to Exeter from:
Edinburgh
Glasgow
Guernsey
Jersey
London (City)
Manchester
Newcastle
Norwich
St Marys (Isles of Scilly)
And to Newquay
London-Gatwick (NeilC )
Leeds/Bradford
Manchester
Another way to do it is to change the scoring system so there are less stringent requirements to have a spread of demographics.
Incidentally, google says there are flights to Exeter from:
Edinburgh
Glasgow
Guernsey
Jersey
London (City)
Manchester
Newcastle
Norwich
St Marys (Isles of Scilly)
And to Newquay
London-Gatwick (NeilC )
Leeds/Bradford
Manchester
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Re: Compass Sport Cup
Sunlit Forres wrote: Are there any other clubs in this situation?
Both Trophy and Cup holders.
I can't see teams of six working. One clubs send six children, another sends six elites, a third six pensioners, and we have to figure out a sensible format to decide who is best.
But I have argued for many years that limiting the number of counters per course is bad. It makes it harder for smaller clubs to raise a team, and the penalty for not having a full team is crippling. It's unnecessarily elitist, because the people who are excluded are, by definition, not among the top-3 of their club in that category. It also leads to people being forced to "run up" on inappropriate courses, which makes the whole experience less enjoyable than it should be. Deleting that rule would make little difference to the results except allowing more teams in.
INT haven't figured out whether to go yet. My family are from Devon, so I certainly will, but the only effect of that may be to make it harder for the clubs with a chance to get points in my age class. If you want me to run up to avoid this, pm me with a bribe
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Re: Compass Sport Cup
graeme wrote:I can't see teams of six working. One clubs send six children, another sends six elites, a third six pensioners, and we have to figure out a sensible format to decide who is best.
What I should have said is that the finalists would have to send the best 6 in their club to run one of 2 designated courses (one for men one for women)
If a club has developed to the extent that they have 3 men and 3 women super-elites to make a good "final" team, as well as a good enough cross section of other age classes to get them through the qualifying round, in my book they'd deserve to be the UK club champions.
In many clubs, of course, their best runners would not be M/W21s, and it would be an interesting conundrum for some clubs deciding who to send. In Moravian's case, if I were picking a theoretical 6-person "final" team, it might comprise one M45, one M50, one M20, one W18, one W40 and a W45. Maybe people would be fighting over themselves to try to gain selection - now that would be a novel concept.
This is all well and good in theory - I very much doubt it would be popular! But with the format as it currently stands, the competition very much favours the clubs local to the final. Assuming the final rotates around the UK I guess everyone will get their chance at some stage so maybe this is just something we will have to live with and clubs should be content to focus their efforts in the years where the final is reachable.
Last edited by Sunlit Forres on Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Compass Sport Cup
The CSC does have a curious format it seems to me. It rewards a mixture of: performance runners, number of runners, distribution of runners across the age groups, and proximity to the event.
With all these factors mixed together you end up with something a bit strange, a hybrid competition (what is the defining characteristic of a winning club?). Not that I've got anything against it mind - it does a good job of building club morale/team spirit once a year.
With all these factors mixed together you end up with something a bit strange, a hybrid competition (what is the defining characteristic of a winning club?). Not that I've got anything against it mind - it does a good job of building club morale/team spirit once a year.
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Re: Compass Sport Cup
Crex wrote:Not that I've got anything against it mind - it does a good job of building club morale/team spirit once a year.
And I think thats the whole point of it there! I see Mikes issue with travel - our club already decided not to prioritise the final so had a limited team out in the heats. But thats swings and roundabouts. It might be that a team who didnt expect to qualify might suddenly think its worth going.
If you want to send your best half dozen or so orienteers to something - try the harvester...but I'd keep the CST/C as a full club competition.
I think I'd also keep the limits to numbers - despite what Graeme says, I think its good to reward clubs with a good spread of ages.
Orienteering - its no walk in the park
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Re: Compass Sport Cup
andypat wrote:our club already decided not to prioritise the final so had a limited team out in the heats
Which is fair enough, although in years when the final is miles away I think the Scottish Heat is like having our own Scottish Final and we should treat it as such.
ESOC decided not to enter the CSC this year due to the distance to the final. Even so, they had 33 runners entered in the event. It would have made the "Cup" competition much more interesting had they been counted, and it seemed a shame not to have what must be one of the biggest clubs in Scotland taking part at what was a relatively local venue for them.
There are few enough opportunities to compete as a club team. We need to make the most of all those that exist.
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Re: Compass Sport Cup
Sunlit Forres wrote:ESOC decided not to enter the CSC this year due to the distance to the final. Even so, they had 33 runners entered in the event. It would have made the "Cup" competition much more interesting had they been counted.
But if they had entered it may have been the case that Moravian had not got a place in the final, and therefore no chance of being able to go, so no discussion! And if you allow teams to pass on a place in the final (not sure if you can do this) then it almost becomes a 'who can be bothered to travel to the final'. With your FVOs, SYOs and ODs etc it's hard to see any team competing with their strength and depth, so what's the point in such a long way for a one-off event?
Andrew Dalgleish (INT)
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Re: Compass Sport Cup
andy wrote:But if they had entered it may have been the case that Moravian had not got a place in the final, and therefore no chance of being able to go, so no discussion!
The final had no bearing on Moravian's decision to go - the attraction was to be able to take part in an competition as a club rather than a bunch of individuals. The club has had a period of rapid growth and is now trying to develop itself as a club and engage the large number of members who have recently taken up the sport. Team events like this are vital to achieve this which is why the club subsidised a bus.
andy wrote:With your FVOs, SYOs and ODs etc it's hard to see any team competing with their strength and depth, so what's the point in such a long way for a one-off event?
That was my original point. Reducing team size for the final removes that issue.
These clubs must have started somewhere and I take my hat off to them for achieving what they do. Here in Scotland think FVO are a great example of a club that has built itself up in to a real "team" club and that to me is something that makes a club really attractive. As far as I know FVO are still officially a "small" club (under 125 members) so to generate the 68 runners they did is pretty remarkable.
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Re: Compass Sport Cup
SeanC wrote:
Incidentally, google says there are flights to Exeter from:
Edinburgh
Glasgow
Guernsey
Jersey
London (City)
Manchester
Newcastle
Norwich
St Marys (Isles of Scilly)
And to Newquay
London-Gatwick (NeilC )
Leeds/Bradford
Manchester
So £100 per person (Edin to Exeter return just now - but it will go up and they're aren't enough seats already) with a team of 20?? plus hire cars/coach plus accommodation plus entry comes to a grand total of (back of a fag packet)......over £6000 . That's quite a commitment from a club (or it's members) .....maybe it will be cheaper to charter a plan
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Re: Compass Sport Cup
andy wrote:Sunlit Forres wrote:ESOC decided not to enter the CSC this year due to the distance to the final. Even so, they had 33 runners entered in the event. It would have made the "Cup" competition much more interesting had they been counted.
But if they had entered it may have been the case that Moravian had not got a place in the final, and therefore no chance of being able to go, so no discussion! And if you allow teams to pass on a place in the final (not sure if you can do this) then it almost becomes a 'who can be bothered to travel to the final'. With your FVOs, SYOs and ODs etc it's hard to see any team competing with their strength and depth, so what's the point in such a long way for a one-off event?
We didn't want to deprive another club from being in the final if we had entered and managed to make the final and not gone.
Until five or six years ago there were only two large Scottish clubs so it wasn't really an issue as the other large club, didn't enter the Scottish round. Recently this increased to six clubs, but has now gone down again to four.
Simon Firth - ESOC
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Re: Compass Sport Cup
Sunlit Forres wrote:While it's impossible to create a totally level playing field, this sets me wondering if the qualifying heats could be aimed at maximum participation, helped by the easier logistics. This would benefit ambitious, well-balanced clubs who can perform well across a large cross section of age classes, and then have the final for much smaller "select" teams (eg 3 men and 3 women).
This final already exists without the hassle of qualifying rounds.
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Re: Compass Sport Cup
I think the current format of heat and final is good. Always preferable to not have the final at one end of the country or the other but it is what it is and I'm sure those living in Devon are sick of traveling to the midlands / north...
We're organising the YHOA middle champs next weekend (On the fantastic Hugset...) and I thought about setting the results system up to calculate a winning club based on X counters. The systems are already capable of doing this so it would only take a few minutes to set up. Thoughts?
Extending the idea out, could you also do this at the other British champs. It gives people the chance to contribute. You could still split clubs into small / large.
Would this make the CSC less important? I personally don't think so it is the only purely team competition in the year.
Of course if FVO win everything we'd need to change the rules somehow...
We're organising the YHOA middle champs next weekend (On the fantastic Hugset...) and I thought about setting the results system up to calculate a winning club based on X counters. The systems are already capable of doing this so it would only take a few minutes to set up. Thoughts?
Extending the idea out, could you also do this at the other British champs. It gives people the chance to contribute. You could still split clubs into small / large.
Would this make the CSC less important? I personally don't think so it is the only purely team competition in the year.
Of course if FVO win everything we'd need to change the rules somehow...
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Re: Compass Sport Cup
I think you could have some fun devising an interesting competition.
I'm going to sound negative here, but for your event next week I wouldn't bother with a multi-club competition,
A large part of the CSC's success IMHO, is that club members and and captains are actively involved. Clubs don't compete by accident, the captain must enter and choose a venue, the scoring system encourages club members to talk to each other and encourage each other to go, to spread scorers across the different courses. Obviously it's built up some prestige over the years which helps too. All this helps publicity.
There are quite a few club competitions where clubs enter by accident. No-one has to do anything to enter or even win (apart from orienteer of course). In fact my club has one this weekend. The Saxons Shield Trophy. I wonder how many who are going this Sunday even know they're entering a club competition? And if they do, is anyone motivated?
I think there's scope for local derby/grudge matches - but organised by the clubs. Eg for Yorkshire AIRE challenging CLARO, HALO vs LOG etc. Or a team competition rather than a club competition, or maybe teams based on local towns and cities (Bradford vs York vs Leeds?), but the key is active entry and participation, even if it starts small. If it's fun and motivating it will grow.
I'm going to sound negative here, but for your event next week I wouldn't bother with a multi-club competition,
A large part of the CSC's success IMHO, is that club members and and captains are actively involved. Clubs don't compete by accident, the captain must enter and choose a venue, the scoring system encourages club members to talk to each other and encourage each other to go, to spread scorers across the different courses. Obviously it's built up some prestige over the years which helps too. All this helps publicity.
There are quite a few club competitions where clubs enter by accident. No-one has to do anything to enter or even win (apart from orienteer of course). In fact my club has one this weekend. The Saxons Shield Trophy. I wonder how many who are going this Sunday even know they're entering a club competition? And if they do, is anyone motivated?
I think there's scope for local derby/grudge matches - but organised by the clubs. Eg for Yorkshire AIRE challenging CLARO, HALO vs LOG etc. Or a team competition rather than a club competition, or maybe teams based on local towns and cities (Bradford vs York vs Leeds?), but the key is active entry and participation, even if it starts small. If it's fun and motivating it will grow.
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Re: Compass Sport Cup
SeanC wrote:I think there's scope for local derby/grudge matches - but organised by the clubs. Eg for Yorkshire AIRE challenging CLARO, HALO vs LOG etc. Or a team competition rather than a club competition, or maybe teams based on local towns and cities (Bradford vs York vs Leeds?), but the key is active entry and participation, even if it starts small. If it's fun and motivating it will grow.
Indeed, we already do this. LOG and HALO have competed for the Lincolnshire Challenge Shield every spring at one of our local midweek events for several years now, using a model roughly based on the CSC model, and this swaps every year from home to away. We also use our summer Lincolnshire Urban League to have another inter-club competition based on this format. Both work really well and have encouraged friendly local rivalry and they create a social atmosphere that other O events sometimes lack.
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