We had an interesting incident last night at the Kent Night Cup.The time for the guy who came 6th was 60.00. ie the time reflected the fact that a full hour had expired before he punched the finish. At the time of punching, he was in the first second of the 2nd hour.
However, the Autodownload software didn't allocate any penalty points.
Of course this doesn't really matter for a local event, but it made me wonder if there are more significant score events where the issue of whether 60.00 should attract penalties might be more significant?
60 minute score
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Re: 60 minute score
I don't know what the rules say for orienteering, but for athletics I believe you measure the time to 10ms or 100ms (manual) or 1ms (photo) and then round up to 1s, 100ms or 10ms as appropriate, i.e. if you measure 1:02:03.1 then it becomes 1:02:04 but 1:02:03.0 stays as 1:02:03.
- roadrunner
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Re: 60 minute score
I don't know of any more important score events than the MDOC and SROC night leagues. They haven't Had this conundrum yet.
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Re: 60 minute score
The time for the guy who came 6th was 60.00. ie the time reflected the fact that a full hour had expired before he punched the finish. At the time of punching, he was in the first second of the 2nd hour.
It could have been 60.00 exactly, in which case no penalty should be applied.
- SJC
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Re: 60 minute score
SJC wrote:The time for the guy who came 6th was 60.00. ie the time reflected the fact that a full hour had expired before he punched the finish. At the time of punching, he was in the first second of the 2nd hour.
It could have been 60.00 exactly, in which case no penalty should be applied.
I guess the change from 59:59 to 60:00 is a digital transition that is infinitesimally small. So small that every moment in time close to the transition is either 59:59 or 60:00. As the time changes to 60:00 it marks the fact that a full hour has passed.
- RobL
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Re: 60 minute score
I would not want to argue the point with anyone managing exactly the 60.00. The first thing you would need to do was know the exact rounding style of the clock system which I think would be hard to find out. You need to prove your synchronisation between start and finish is very good as well before trying to apply a penalty here. Anything other than what Autodownload is doing would cause rather a lot of hassle.
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ifor - brown
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Re: 60 minute score
I don't know what the rules say for orienteering,
From the rules:
The finishing time must be measured when the competitor punches at the finish point or crosses the finish at events where there is no electronic punching system in use. Finish times must be rounded down to the completed second.
- SJC
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Re: 60 minute score
I haven't used Autodownload for a while but my recollection was that you could set the trigger time and interval for score penalties down to the nearest second? In practice most people use multiples of 60- but you could use something different as long as the competition rules were applied consistently?
- Marco Polo
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Re: 60 minute score
60 minutes dead has happened at a previous Kent Night Cup event (like the event RobL refers to). I remember it was SI guru Simon Maytum and people joked he'd pre-programmed his d!bb3r.
This season's KNC has been really good, with lots of different formats. Numbers seem consistently high - generally 30 to 40. Thursday's event had 32 controls in a small area (normally 20) so encouraged runners to push themselves and make use of the final few minutes/seconds
The last 3 events in the series to plug.
Next Thursday: Manor Park and West Malling - street and parks. Trains from/to Victoria.
Week after; Whitehorse wood. Bramble fest, but also chalk downlands with great views over the Medway Valley.
Final week: Ightham North (Sevenoaks/Borough Green): One of Kent's best area with runnable woods, old mine workings, and an Iron age fort to scale.
Pub and prizes after every event.
This season's KNC has been really good, with lots of different formats. Numbers seem consistently high - generally 30 to 40. Thursday's event had 32 controls in a small area (normally 20) so encouraged runners to push themselves and make use of the final few minutes/seconds
The last 3 events in the series to plug.
Next Thursday: Manor Park and West Malling - street and parks. Trains from/to Victoria.
Week after; Whitehorse wood. Bramble fest, but also chalk downlands with great views over the Medway Valley.
Final week: Ightham North (Sevenoaks/Borough Green): One of Kent's best area with runnable woods, old mine workings, and an Iron age fort to scale.
Pub and prizes after every event.
- SeanC
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Re: 60 minute score
RobL wrote:We had an interesting incident last night at the Kent Night Cup.
There were two competitors at the MDOC street event sixty minute score on the same night who took 60:00. Again no penalties were given.
If you wish to apply penalties in this case you would need to specify that you must take less than sixty minutes. You would then need to apply the same to every penalty boundary. E.g MDOC is 1 point every three seconds, so you'd have to give one point for 0-2 seconds, two points for 3-6 seconds etc.
I think this is nonsense, that a 60 minute score event is 60 minutes or less and 60:00 is perfect timing.
- PG
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Re: 60 minute score
PG wrote:I think this is nonsense, that a 60 minute score event is 60 minutes or less and 60:00 is perfect timing.
Funnily enough a club mate also told me it was nonsense earlier today .
We have a second clock. It's broken, but it does at least show the hours that have elapsed. If you come in during the first hour it shows "0". If you are even just milliseconds late it shows "1". In terms of the event I guess this means:
0 = success, you have returned within one hour
1 = penalty, a full hour expired before you punched the finish
If I could get the clock repaired so that it also showed the minutes and seconds too, I'm not sure it would change the logic above.
Anyway, I concede that for some it would be inelegant to change things from how they currently work. However, should there ever be a major score event, the current way things are programmed in software would create a potential issue.
- RobL
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Re: 60 minute score
RobL wrote:PG wrote:I think this is nonsense, that a 60 minute score event is 60 minutes or less and 60:00 is perfect timing.
Funnily enough a club mate also told me it was nonsense earlier today .
We have a second clock. It's broken, but it does at least show the hours that have elapsed. If you come in during the first hour it shows "0". If you are even just milliseconds late it shows "1". In terms of the event I guess this means:
0 = success, you have returned within one hour
1 = penalty, a full hour expired before you punched the finish
If I could get the clock repaired so that it also showed the minutes and seconds too, I'm not sure it would change the logic above.
Your club-mate is correct.
One hour is allowed (not 'return within one hour'). In your analogous world the rules say that times are rounded down to the nearest hour so the milliseconds (or seconds or minutes) that you are over the hour are ignored, until you reach 2 hours.
Returning to reality, the rule quoted by SJC means that penalties don't apply until the elapsed time reaches 60:01.000.
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