It looks like SI Air cards touch free system is becoming more common, with several events in the last year trialling it and free borrowing of cards. Now some events are offering the 'option' of using touch free air cards or regular ones, at a cost £2 per hire.
Considering many may have just up graded, and until this new system becomes the norm, should some members be able to pay to have an advantage at competitions? (albeit a few seconds at each control)?
Lets not use money to be able to gain an unfair advantage, like the device of 'priority boarding' on certain airlines!
SIAC touch free
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Re: SIAC touch free
When I first started orienteering I went round in walking boots. I then paid money to get some O-shoes and went round faster. Did I get an unfair advantage by doing this?
- DJM
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Re: SIAC touch free
How it is different to other advantages you can pay for in orienteering, like a fast settling compass? And interesting that you say "until this new system becomes the norm" - fast settling compasses have been around for years, but that doesn't mean everyone has them. The same may well be true for SI cards - in 5 years' time, many events may be set up to allow touch-free punching, but orienteers may still chose to buy a cheaper SI card and punch "normally".
- Duncan
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Re: SIAC touch free
Big difference is that I have a choice of supplier of O shoes, compasses, etc.
Sport Ident have a monopoly on SI cards and having taken a lot of money off people in recent years for fast punching cards have now effectively rendered them obsolete if you want to be competitive. Pure money making on their part.
Sport Ident have a monopoly on SI cards and having taken a lot of money off people in recent years for fast punching cards have now effectively rendered them obsolete if you want to be competitive. Pure money making on their part.
- SJC
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Re: SIAC touch free
SJC wrote:Big difference is that I have a choice of supplier of O shoes, compasses, etc.
Sport Ident have a monopoly on SI cards and having taken a lot of money off people in recent years for fast punching cards have now effectively rendered them obsolete if you want to be competitive. Pure money making on their part.
I don't see it as any difference. The choice being made is that you want something that makes your run more fun (compass)/less prone to falling over (O shoes)/fractionally faster (SI card). Whether there is one or many suppliers of said kit is irrelevant.
I could argue that Inov8 have a monopoly on Mudclaws, but I don't because I accept that if I want a pair I need to shell out £90 - which is why at present I am using a pair of Walshes I found in the garage and sliding all over the place as a result.
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Re: SIAC touch free
In order to save people repeating themselves you should read the earlier topic about this that had 89 responses covering all the usual arguments for and against.
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Re: SIAC touch free
Point well made SJC.
SI have some way to go to persuade me to upgrade (or pay extra to hire an SI air card). I note that the E+CC Committee have been discussing the issue and they agree that there is an inherent unfairness.
My opinion is that contactless punching is unfair in principle. Time can be saved by getting close to a control (possibly even on the opposite side of an 'not-to-be-crossed' feature) compared with most competitors who will at least touch the EMIT/SI unit. Not touching the unit effectively shortens the course (albeit very marginally). I can't really see the need for it, except maybe in a sprint relay.
(Probably repeated myself, thanks Paul).
SI have some way to go to persuade me to upgrade (or pay extra to hire an SI air card). I note that the E+CC Committee have been discussing the issue and they agree that there is an inherent unfairness.
My opinion is that contactless punching is unfair in principle. Time can be saved by getting close to a control (possibly even on the opposite side of an 'not-to-be-crossed' feature) compared with most competitors who will at least touch the EMIT/SI unit. Not touching the unit effectively shortens the course (albeit very marginally). I can't really see the need for it, except maybe in a sprint relay.
(Probably repeated myself, thanks Paul).
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Re: SIAC touch free
I do wonder just how much of an advantage there is to be gained. I know that I can't extrapolate my 100m time to my 1km time but can I extrapolate time saved punching at one control to the whole course? Perhaps the body uses the time spent slowing down at a control as a recovery period (however short) and allows greater effort later on in the course.
As a competitor I found electronic punching a big improvement over pin punching, and I find contactless swiping a better experience than punching. Similar I guess to what we have seen with the evolution of mobile phones etc. As a planner it's great that I only have to put out one control box per site at the Brighton City Race rather than 2,3 or 4.
Since the last thread on this topic E&CC seem to have toned down their objection to mixed punching events (according to the minutes published last week). They now seem to feel that it is OK so long as all competitors have the opportunity to use a SIAC at a reasonable price.
As a competitor I found electronic punching a big improvement over pin punching, and I find contactless swiping a better experience than punching. Similar I guess to what we have seen with the evolution of mobile phones etc. As a planner it's great that I only have to put out one control box per site at the Brighton City Race rather than 2,3 or 4.
Since the last thread on this topic E&CC seem to have toned down their objection to mixed punching events (according to the minutes published last week). They now seem to feel that it is OK so long as all competitors have the opportunity to use a SIAC at a reasonable price.
- NeilC
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Re: SIAC touch free
As long as you can hire an SIAC card to use instead of your "normal" one (if you wish), then I can't see any unfairness. It's no different to running an event using Emit, where again many will have to hire.
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Re: SIAC touch free
Just annoying that, like SJC, I had just purchased a new faster card which was very shortly succeeded by the SIAC. I was offered a measly £5 back for my "old" card which I had just paid £60 for
- Tatty
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Re: SIAC touch free
NeilC wrote:They now seem to feel that it is OK so long as all competitors have the opportunity to use a SIAC at a reasonable price.
The problem is that the modest fee they mention is probably less than it costs to hire one from SPORTident (£4.32 at the moment).
From the minutes:
From the minutes:
It is hoped that Clubs belonging to British Orienteering will be able to have available for loan contactless Ecards either free of charge or for a modest fee at all Levels of Event in order to allow individual participants to experience the use of a contactless Ecard
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Re: SIAC touch free
Since the last thread on this topic E&CC seem to have toned down their objection to mixed punching events (according to the minutes published last week).
Is this really true given the statement "It is recognised that the use of contactless cards provides a significant advantage compared to contact cards so the mixing of two types in competition could be viewed as fundamentally "unfair"."
However, even more interesting is "Planners must place controls at each site on a course of whatever Technical Difficulty as far as is practicable at any Level of Event in such a position that the control is equally fair for competitors with either a contact or contactless Ecard." This should generate enough complaints to keep the event juries occupied for many an hour.
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Re: SIAC touch free
NeilC wrote:I do wonder just how much of an advantage there is to be gained. I know that I can't extrapolate my 100m time to my 1km time but can I extrapolate time saved punching at one control to the whole course? Perhaps the body uses the time spent slowing down at a control as a recovery period (however short) and allows greater effort later on in the course.
....
I did some research on this for a big race in Scotland last year. The answer is that at the elite level in urban/sprint races the time saved by contactless punching is of order 2-3 seconds per control. I suspect that this is made up roughly equally of "punching time" and the time lost through deceleration and acceleration at each control. I'd say that was quite a significant advantage.
- DaveR
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Re: SIAC touch free
How did you test whether or not the two punching techniques had any effect on performance between the controls?
- NeilC
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Re: SIAC touch free
Just to be clear, the hire fee for SIAC cards at the JK is £2.15 per day (£6.45 for the weekend). I am not aware of any event that is charging more than that, and certainly not £4.32. We did have the option of wrapping the cost into the entry fee and offering 'free' hire but opted for transparency instead. However, we were able to do a deal so that hire is free for Juniors.
I appreciate that there are a range of views on the topic but would point out that the IOF takes a different view to E&CC. Their statement on the topic can be found here http://orienteering.org/iof-statement-on-mixing-contactless-punching-with-contact-punching/
And finally...I can assure everyone that the planners for the Sprint Race have been tasked to be especially careful to ensure that there is no scope for 'waving' across uncrossable barriers at controls. Now there is a topic that winds me up...
I appreciate that there are a range of views on the topic but would point out that the IOF takes a different view to E&CC. Their statement on the topic can be found here http://orienteering.org/iof-statement-on-mixing-contactless-punching-with-contact-punching/
And finally...I can assure everyone that the planners for the Sprint Race have been tasked to be especially careful to ensure that there is no scope for 'waving' across uncrossable barriers at controls. Now there is a topic that winds me up...
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