JK Results

[cbg]

Shock horror ... orienteers can look after themselves and are sensible enough to make the right decision about their own safety. (But I dare say that there were very few juniors still out by that time.) I recall an OMM in the Lake District when 2000 'lost' runners achieved the same. That should give our insurers great confidence.

Didn't anyone protest that the conditions were significantly not the same for all, so the results should be annulled? Or did everyone just accept that is the way the dice are rolled?

[andy]

Didn't anyone protest that the conditions were significantly not the same for all, so the results should be annulled? Or did everyone just accept that is the way the dice are rolled?

Has such a protest ever succeeded in the past?

[Arnold]

Like ski jumping we could try and adjust the times to account for the weather - maybe 10 secs per minute running in hail (20 secs if golfball size or above)? With extra bonus seconds for people with glasses or contacts. Of course an additional adjustment for age would have to be made, and people known to be easily scared or unable to close zips quickly could petition for a further 2 minutes.

[awk]

Didn't anyone protest that the conditions were significantly not the same for all, so the results should be annulled? Or did everyone just accept that is the way the dice are rolled?

Where would you draw the line? Between those who suffered the hailstorm and others, or between those who ran through the earlier squall and others? Or in any race where conditions change? I remember a National event in South Wales where the early starters had 10m visibility fog and the later starters were in bright sunshine.

[LostAgain]

Didn't anyone protest that the conditions were significantly not the same for all, so the results should be annulled? Or did everyone just accept that is the way the dice are rolled?

Where would you draw the line? Between those who suffered the hailstorm and others, or between those who ran through the earlier squall and others? Or in any race where conditions change? I remember a National event in South Wales where the early starters had 10m visibility fog and the later starters were in bright sunshine.

The drawing of the line is for the arbitrators to determine should a protest be made. The conditions definitely changed significantly and the leading male medal contenders retired.

[awk]

The drawing of the line is for the arbitrators to determine should a protest be made. The conditions definitely changed significantly and the leading male medal contenders retired.

The medal winners all ran in the same conditions though.

(Just mulling it over - I agree that it would be for the jury to decide where the boundary line is drawn. Actually, I don't think the retirements are relevant. Personally, as a general principle, it's the luck of the draw in any outdoor sport, however unfair that might seem.)

[Ravinous]

I feel that conditions were worse in last May at the Irish Long distance Champs on Slieve Croob (JK 2011 Long Area). Again it was just above zero but the rain was more or less continuous and horizontal with the blustery wind bringing you to a standstill at times. Underfoot conditions were very wet. Kilnsey's limestone soaks up the water well. Both races I ran in a lightweight Goretex with hood and had a Buff which stayed on in Ireland (and gloves). But in Ireland, I had a long sleeve thermal too (Short sleeve at Kilnsey), having seen 3 degrees on the car thermometer in the event car park - isnt it 1 degree lower in temp every 100m you climb!? So knew on the hill top it would be grim!

In my opinion there are too many people taking flimsy pertexes or non-waterproof hoodless club jackets as their 'cagoule'. A nylon O top isnt really great either. It is a simple case of you will enjoy your run much more if you have some half decent kit, ie cant feel the wind biting into your skin and are not totally soaked through.
I dont think either event should have been cancelled. Orienteers know their limitations and those who could not handle it/didnt have the right kit/dont like tough conditions, retired perfectly safely.

It was good to see whistle and cag checks on the way to the starts, but can see such high open moor areas requiring more prescribed kit - ie waterproof jacket with hood, like the FRA has adopted after some accidents at their events in recent years.

I would also say both races pale into insignificance compared to conditions I have experienced on some Mountain Marathons I have run. But you tend to be higher up, carrying a rucksack and the terrain much more precipitous in those.

[iainwp]

The conditions definitely changed significantly and the leading male medal contenders retired.

Very kind. I've not been a leading medal contender before ...

[Mr D]

In my opinion there are too many people taking flimsy pertexes or non-waterproof hoodless club jackets as their 'cagoule'. A nylon O top isnt really great either. It is a simple case of you will enjoy your run much more if you have some half decent kit, ie cant feel the wind biting into your skin and are not totally soaked through.

I dont think either event should have been cancelled. Orienteers know their limitations and those who could not handle it/didnt have the right kit/dont like tough conditions, retired perfectly safely.

In past years i have completed the Tigger Tor event which required full FRA kit to be checked prior to the start. As an "Orienteer" i felt this kit was a bit overkill as i dont usually carry that much stuff with me.

Fast forward time, and i am now Orienteering in the same terrain, at the same height however its Snowy (DVO @ Longshaw). I did not require the kit, as i started in t-shirt, however i had a waist pack full of kit in the car.

The difference is choice, i make the choice based upon course distance, expected times etc.

[ba-ba]

I'm not as experienced in O as many people here, but even 6 years of long Fell Racing/MMs at a decent level, in all weather conditions has given me pause for thought. I put together a few thoughts here: http://attackpoint.org/viewlog.jsp/user_3801/period-1/enddate-2016-03-29

I've been told by others that they weren't asked to show their cag. Also of importance is the poor quality tops orienteers deem waterproofs.

Basically, we had a near miss on Sunday and learning needs to come from it. If you leave it too long coroners and insurance companies get involved (as in Fell Running) and rules become much stricter.

Carrying all the proper kit may not save you, but it will give you a fighting chance.

I've now started asking a few people who got into difficulties on Sunday and it's quite scary what I've found out - I need to find contact details for the safety officer, organisers, to get all sides of the story, have a trawl through BOF's rules and those of the FRA.

[Freefall]

I was involved in safety aspects at WOC 2015 and wanted to mandate waterproof/windproof tops and carrying of whistles in Glen Affric in the event of bad or extreme weather (which can happen in Scotland even in August). I was told I could not stipulate this and athletes would ignore us - e.g. throwing away whistles at the start line. Bulletin 4 carried the following info which hopefully would have helped cover our backs: In the event of bad weather, the organisers may advise the carrying of lightweight waterproof/windproof tops for the Long Distance competition. Competitors are recommended to carry whistles in the Long Distance.
Having seen atrocious weather conditions on many occasions e.g.Munro compleatist; KIMM 1998 and OMM 2008; BOC at Simonside etc. I would personally err on the side of caution to ensure my own survival.

[nooomember]

I was told I could not stipulate this and athletes would ignore us - e.g. throwing away whistles at the start line. Bulletin 4 carried the following info which hopefully would have helped cover our backs: In the event of bad weather, the organisers may advise the carrying of lightweight waterproof/windproof tops for the Long Distance competition. Competitors are recommended to carry whistles in the Long Distance.
Having seen atrocious weather conditions on many occasions e.g.Munro compleatist; KIMM 1998 and OMM 2008; BOC at Simonside etc. I would personally err on the side of caution to ensure my own survival.

That's more common sense and what all events should do... Advise and recommend Not make things conpulsory

[DM]

If you advise and recommend then people will do what Freefall got told, they will throw the whistle away. If it is made compulsory to agree to carry a whistle and hooded waterproof around the course or not be allowed to start it is so much clearer.

[mykind]

Now imagine that you have "advised" and someone has not taken your advice, gone out in horrid weather, got lost off the map, broken a leg and died from exposure.
You are now in a coroners court trying to explain why when you have clearly identified a risk ( you did advise people about it) you did not then carry out your legal duty of care and make the carrying of full equipment mandatory.
Having made it mandatory it would be only sensible to check that everyone is following your instructions and not simply dumping all the kit before they start. Otherwise my best understanding of the law is that you would be guilty of negligence and any insurance company might well have a field day.
This scenario hasn't happened yet but it is eminently possible and I've seen what such court appearances do to people so let's not have it happen in our sport.
For what it is worth I would have done what the organisers did on Sunday given that the foul weather was only lasting for a fairly short time.

[ba-ba]

IMO the main issue is the lack of experience of these kind of conditions on open hillside that many orienteers have. I wouldn't want to impose a kit list, often I think organisers are being too cautious, but remind myself it's their prerogative and if I don't like it don't attend their event.

I have now learnt that keeping track of runners out on the hillside/mid-course is more important. Waiting until courses close and control boxes retrieved/interrogated to implement a search plan is, especially in cold scenarios, too late.

You may think talk of coroners etc. is a bit OTT, but it happened only 3 years ago in Fell Running.