JWOC/EYOC selections

[Lard]

That post from me was in 2007.
I think I had some hair then.... I still stand by my view that athletes need exposure to what's out there if we're to:
a: help them achieve credible results & build confidence before they turn senior
b: see the bigger picture (how fantastic our sport is/can be).

As far as I'm concerned any investment from BO has to have a multi-pronged approach. Jackie's role with the 16s isn't just about trying to produce a handfull of future superstars (most predictions at that age will be wild guesses) but also instilling the desire to stick with the sport in future (as coaches, planners, results list proper-uppers, organisers, committe members) because it was so much fun when they were young! And let's not forget those who plateau or drop off during their tumultuous teens and return better for it as young seniors.

Look at any LTA developmental pyramid and you'll see that if the bottom two sections of the base are small then the top section is absolutely tiny. Opening up & increasing opportunities is the way forward - keep it cheap and ask the kids to raise the funds - but don't close off potential once-in-a-lifetime opportunities.

This is where a joined-up approach between BO and JROS is required (and some mutual appreciation that both sides are achieving worthy outcomes).

[Ravinous]

EYOC is effectively THE 16s championship for Europe.
Looking at 2014 results, 28 European nations sent 16s. Excluding NED, LUX!, it is just NOR and SWE who don't. (And to understand why they don't send teams you need to look at their culture. They don't have formal assessment in school until they are 13. No National O Champs for 14s and younger. They would think our M/W10 age classes at BOC abhorrent. This is a cross sport/culture attitude. U16s sport is all about fun, participation, learning some basic skills, no pressure, no winners/losers. And justifying any omission of 16s to EYOC because NOR/SWE do, shows a complete misunderstanding of why they don't send teams. And actually, with local terrain and races, they don't really need to go to EYOC!?!)

Let's look at why Lars Lindstrom and the Danes send teams... Translated from their National Team plan..."For some years, the Danish Orienteering Federation has chosen to give the younger talents (15-16 years) a first experience of what it means to run in the red white team suit at Youth EM, officially called the European Youth Orienteering Championships. There is a strong emphasis on no performance objectives for the participants, but the race first and foremost help to give a gentle push in the direction of finding out whether a national team future could be something for them. And through the years, the Danish participants expressed the view that it has been a great experience to be involved with. For many it has also been the opportunity to create the first contacts with peers and peers in other countries and thereby laying the foundation for some of the international friendships that are so unique to the sport of orienteering."

It has been said before, but 16s going to EYOC is ultimately not about performance but experience. You have to start your 'international O race" life somewhere, as Ralph says, it takes a while before you can manage everything in your head and perform abroad. Failing to take part in this experience at EYOC as a 16 just delays this development and puts athletes 2 years behind the other 28 nations who attend. Plus it takes away a goal/motivator for athletes to aim for. EYOC inspires. Attendance creates more +ves than -ves.

JROS activity/programme is simple and easy to understand and mirrors what BOF used to provide until Gareth Candy / Sarah Hague decided to axe them all without any consultation to those providing these tours. Luckily those tours continued as what replaced them was mixed, and overall, decreased numbers of juniors were involved, and many were not going overseas as before.
JROS.org.uk explains more but 4 summer tours and a Hawkshead weekend, JIRCS and JHIs is hardly a complicated programme and one which hasnt actually changed really for 25 years. So I am curious as to know why JROS isnt talking to BOF? As there have been various meetings. JROS doesnt seem to be hiding anything and JROS tours have deliberately been placed in the past to avoid clashing with BOF activity. However, if BOF dont publish what they are doing until a few months before, then clashes will occur. I have just mailed Jackie the dates of Deeside and Stockholm so any possible 'summer tour' for 16s does not clash with these.

I think the issue is one of listening.

[DIDSCO]

http://orientacnisporty.cz/eyoc2011/?p=237

.....think I'll go with this random guy's opinions on EYOC

Mark Nixon > why do you support the BOF decision? and if you're the coach why didn't you have anything to do with the decision?

[Lard]

I missed that Harry!

[buzz]

Harry. I'm sure your offers of help would be gratefully received but I think you're missing the point.

Firstly, most of the people on this thread are volunteers who put hundreds of hours into helping kids orienteer (including I suspect Ralph and Didsco) and we're certainly not just moaning about BO.

Secondly, many of those people are already arranging tours, exchanges, training weekends etc.independently of and at no cost to BO. There is a big difference though between GB representation at EYOC and an exchange trip to Halden. The latter would almost certainly be more beneficial in terms of developing skills, but doesn't compare with EYOC as a motivational experience that could be the spark that ignites the desire that all world class athletes need some time in their career.

[harry]

Yeah sorry Lard.
Bit unsure about participating in open discussions on here these days.

I have some valid points and ideas to contribute but they are all too easily misunderstood by people with different values and ways of reading my typed words.

Buzz: People are motivated / sparked by different things. As I understand it BO have cut EYOC for 16s but not for 18s. IMO if British 16s could get sparked by desire for technical mastery, teamwork, friendships, cooperation, bonding, travel, rich life experiences and then get a taste of international competition when they are 18s it would not be a bad thing.

This is closer to the Norwegian model. Til 16s the focus is heavily on having FUN. They have hovedløpet for 16s which is a fun trip with your district team with some serious racing thrown in and some fancy dress racing and messing around. First 'serious' National Championships is for 17-18s.

The British model seems to be to rush, cram everything and instill a sense that personal achievement is the most important thing and that outcomes = self worth. Kids that get this message then have to spend their adult years undoing the damage!

Instead of listing results I would be more interested to ask that long list of people how much fun they had at EYOC and see if those answers correlate to whether they stayed in the sport and what they went on to do years later results wise.

[buzz]

Instead of listing results I would be more interested to ask that long list of people how much fun they had at EYOC and see if those answers correlate to whether they stayed in the sport and what they went on to do years later results wise.

Couldn't agree more, and as you say different people get enjoyment from different things. Pride, team spirit, competition can all be positive experiences at any age. Try putting up goal posts or hanging a few kites in a park and hand out coloured team bibs and try stopping the kids from competing and having fun. I imagine it would be the same in Norway.

[Electrocuted]

I think it's a great shame that BOF are not sending a 16s team to EYOC. Some of our 16s have done very well at EYOC and this will no doubt have given them encouragement and a desire to train even harder. Surely it's a great experience representing GBR at this level.

On another point, being selected for something like EYOC or targeting it for selection has probably helped some of our young athletes in obtaining grants. Not taking a team may prejudice them in the future if they haven't been given the opportunity to represent GBR in international competition.

[mharky]

@ Dids and Buzz >>> I'm not part of the performance steering group.

I don't have to justify my personal opinion on here. Even if I gave very detailed explanations of why I formed my opinion, a number of you would passive-aggressively explain why my opinion was wrong.

[awk]

The British model seems to be to rush, cram everything and instill a sense that personal achievement is the most important thing and that outcomes = self worth. Kids that get this message then have to spend their adult years undoing the damage!

A pretty much perfect description of the whole British education system, starting at nursery level!!

[Big Jon]

Awk - do you mean the English education system or have you knowledge of the Scottish education system (very different beast) as well?

[harry]

Try putting up goal posts or hanging a few kites in a park and hand out coloured team bibs and try stopping the kids from competing and having fun. I imagine it would be the same in Norway.

I agree. Do it. Never said that I was anti-competition, team pride and so on. Just think that representing GB is something you work towards and IMO at 15-16 it's much more important to develop the enjoyment of the training process, useful tools like self discipline, how to use a compass properly, racing cross country for your county team, running some relays, teamwork with the people around you.

Mainly I just don't see what the big rush is. I hate to think of 15-16s focusing on periodising their training towards something like EYOC. They should just be out in lots of different terrains having fun and still participating in some different sports at that age, going for long walks in the mountains to build endurance, playing some team sport with accelerations for speed. Just having fun. If they run for Great Britain at 15 - 16 is it still special to represent at age 20 or is it old news by then? What about 21? Are they done then and ready to go off and do something else? -Nothing wrong with that but it's not British Orienteering's main priority to produce athletes who are sick of international competition by the time they're 21.

These are just my opinions. I think that in the UK there is way too much of a rush, people want to skip important steps, there is way too much emphasis on results and outcomes (and getting them yesterday) rather than the process / journey. I think parents' attitudes are often a big part of the problem. Some people / parents need to chill out a bit.

I don't have to justify my personal opinion on here.

Word. Life is too short to go around explaining yourself to everyone.

[Street]

I don't have to justify my personal opinion on here. Even if I gave very detailed explanations of why I formed my opinion, a number of you would passive-aggressively explain why my opinion was wrong.

I can see you worked really hard on this opinion but, no offence, it is completely incorrect.

[harry]

Pride, team spirit, competition can all be positive experiences at any age.

Yes I agree, they can be positive experiences.

It depends what you mean by 'team spirit'.

"I do not believe we are truly a team... We are a group of individuals who share accommodation and coaching staff."
Personal communication by a former GB teammate, January 30th 2015.

I have also had my life choices and potential infertility attacked by fellow GB teammate in the quarantine area immediately prior to an international final (single comment 2012, unprovoked, no apology) and worse...

If you read athlete blogs / training diaries you may have seen an illusion of positive team spirit. Athlete blogs seem to be primarily used for managing reputations rather than providing very much genuine insight.

I am fortunate to have observed and been involved in much more positive team spirit in most of the experiences with the GB team since I started competing in JWOC 1998 (age 16 -I was good enough performance wise but way too young in other ways to be competing in that environment and I do not believe that it was good for my development in the long term). In the end I represented GB at JWOC 4 times, WUOC 4 times and WOC 7 times. In that time I only had 3 or 4 VERY negative (damaging) experiences and many more positive ones. Still I believe that the team spirit is overall MUCH better in Norway. I have been on longer training camps with the Norwegian team and club 'elite' groups: Wing OK, Lillomarka OL and Halden Skiklubb. I believe there are cultural / educational differences that contribute to differences in attitudes. (Janteloven: http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janteloven).

There are some great team players within the senior team who regularly act in support of group interests. I also believe that positive team spirit and pride is very achievable even within a group of 'selfish' athletes under the right conditions, leadership and structure. So hopefully the GB team will be able to get that right ready for their home WOC. More recently I felt that the team spirit was pretty good at the EOC 2014.

SEDS are working together and seem to have a nice team environment. Although as Big Jon pointed out, the Scottish school system is a very 'different beast' to the English one.

I am no longer part of the GB system but I hope that the British team will make fostering team spirit at all levels from EYOC to WOC a much higher priority from now on. It is not something that happens by itself or can be taken for granted.

[graeme]

SEDS are working together and seem to have a nice team environment.

Yes, you won't find 21 page nopethreads whinging about SEDS. And it has done for the last 20+ years which suggests its success not a coincidence and is about structure rather than people.

SEDS has two big structural advantages which promote team spirit.

1/ It's non-heirarchical. Specifically, nobody is in the conflicting position of coach and selector. That's a bad combination, because you need to be honest with your coach and self-promoting with a selector. For the athletes, the only agenda is to get better at orienteering.

2/ It's open. Anyone who can benefit for the training can go along, and nobody is forced to go if it doesn't fit with their plans. The only people who are there are people who want to be, and nobody can whinge about being left out.


PS. It is ridiculous to assess merits of a small team vs a large camp by only asking the people who got selected for the team, not those who were left out.