JWOC/EYOC selections

[awk]

I think that absolutely is considered. So let's take a hypothetical situation. Top year 18, reasonable results in the selection races (good enough that there aren't 6 others ahead of them), good attitude and potential for future. But if they went to JWOC this year, in all honesty they'd be way down the results. Whereas in EYOC 18's they would be pretty competitive. What you going to do? Send them to JWOC and in all likelihood watch their confidence take a knock as they finish well below mid table?

Why on earth should it do that? It might possibly happen, but in all likelihood? You're an M/W18 who, according to this hypothetical scenario, is not the best under-21 in the UK at present, going to compete against the best under-21s in the world? If you're the best M/W18, the chances are that you've already had experience of EYOC etc. Anybody who went in that situation expecting (as opposed to setting dream targets) to perform at or near the top would have been very badly set up by the coaching team - and i'm sure they're not going to do that.

But, what we're actually talking about is having a team with three (3!) empty spaces, when only one of last year's team has moved on, where most are W20s who aren't eligible for EYOC, and where they've pretty much all (including W18) experienced EYOC before.......

[Big Jon]

My memories of the Euro-juniors (as JWOC was called in those pre-historic days) is a great weekend away - but I ran 2 absolutely shocking races.... 3rd last and 4th last springs to mind (I can't find the appropriate map files in the back of the cupboard!). A bit of a shock to me, but I learnt from that experience (slowly, I must admit) and eventually things got a bit better.
My view is that imposing arbitrary standards and refusing to take a full team is not going to positively incentivise anyone. The sport of orienteering is not one where there is a smooth increase in results year after year, indeed it is probably the sport where results will vary wildly from race to race and year to year (as athletes get fitter their technique gets out of synch with their running speed so although fitter the results are poorer). Add in the massive variety of "arena" that we compete in and its not surprising that many orienteers (and particularly British ones) don't peak till their late 20's.
As for percentage behind the winner - this is almost entirely meaningless due to variety of terrain - the tougher the terrain the steeper the drop off in results, if this had been in place in the late '80's and '90's there would have been plenty of races where Yvette was the only British woman picked!

[graeme]

Just composing a letter re JWOC/EYOC/WUOC selection. It seems we're selecting 9/16/12 people instead of the allowed 12/16/12. To help me understand how bad this is, could someone tell me how many juniors other countries typically send to these things?

(edited to get numbers right)

[greywolf]

It seems we're selecting 9/12/12 people instead of the allowed 12/12/12. To help me understand how bad this is, could someone tell me how many juniors other countries typically send to these things?

Only 3 (I think) of the GBR WUOC team are juniors

[parallelerror]

It seems we're selecting 9/12/12 people instead of the allowed 12/12/12.

It's 9/16/12 instead of the expected 12/12/12, as 16 are allowed and being taken to EYOC for the first time. Sweden and Norway don't send 16s to EYOC, but tend to take 8 M/W18s to EYOC, 12 to JWOC and 12 to WUOC. Switzerland take 12/16/12. Denmark don't take 18s to EYOC, but take 8 M/W16s. They aren't registered for this year's WUOC as yet, so 12/8/0?

Though as Greywolf says only 3 of the WUOC team are juniors.

[maprun]

Big Jon, took the words out of my mouth (well computer crashed and lost post). A few decades on and I can still write a couple of pages on what I learnt on each overseas trip. Some of the experiences and insights were completely random and overturned previous preconceptions and were encouraging, some were harder to analyse and took further trips and experience in the UK to understand. An error or an insight gained at the highest level is worth dozens at less important events where you can make excuses or treat smaller events as training, but the big ones stick with you.

I don't recognise the hypothetical orienteer that Duncan refers to whose confidence is knocked. Personality tests of different sportsmen consistently show that orienteers are far more confident and independent than average and we certainly have the skills for meaningful post race analysis.

In the long run for juniors the experience and insights gained are far more important than the result. To my mind, top level experience is part of our sports marginal gains. Cut off the experience and you are handing the gains to the opposition.

[Ravinous]

I’ve missed more than 9,000 shots in my career, lost almost 300 games, missed the game-
winning shot 26 times. I’ve failed over and over again in my life. That is why I succeed.
– Michael Jordan, basketball player

You miss 100 percent of the shots you never take.
– Wayne Gretzky, hockey player

[buzz]

I’ve missed more than 9,000 shots in my career, lost almost 300 games, missed the game-
winning shot 26 times. I’ve failed over and over again in my life. That is why I succeed.
– Michael Jordan, basketball player

You miss 100 percent of the shots you never take.
– Wayne Gretzky, hockey player

Nicely put.

[buzz]

An announcement....
http://www.britishorienteering.org.uk/index.php?pg=1&action=news&id=Mjk2OA==&rtn=aHR0cDovL3d3dy5icml0aXNob3JpZW50ZWVyaW5nLm9yZy51ay8=

[Homer]

Thanks to Buzz and everyone else who provided 'feedback'. It sounds like the Board have listened to the members. It will be interesting to see what changes (if any) to the selection policy result.

[mharky]

It sounds like the Board have listened to the members

Really?

[graeme]

could someone tell me how many juniors other countries typically send to these things?

Nobody seemed to want to help me with this so I did a quick scan myself.
As far as I can tell, the situation is that we are sending more juniors to international races than ever before, and more than any other country.
It is very mysterious to me that neither side in the debate wishes to celebrate this situation.

[RichT]

OK, so it seems that the door has been opened to a debate about the British Orienteering Selection Policy, especially in regard to Junior Competitions.

Although I have been vocal about the Map Scales issue (and thanks to all who supported the successful motion) my real passion has been junior coaching through supporting my own son and latterly with UVHS, Lakeland & NWJS. So I don't view now as being the time to sit back and see what might happen.

I tried to talk to as many people as possible over the Northerns weekend and it seems there are a large number of club coaches who would like to see full teams being taken to junior competitions.

But is that the limit of the concerns and the only change to the policy?

My own view is that Junior athletes (teenagers) are by their very nature inconsistent in their performance due to growing up. So is the 15% performance measure across several events an appropriate tool for including/excluding athletes? This may be just one example . . .

How can we collate the combined "wisdom/opinions/viewpoints" of nopesport posters and feed it back into the review?

Are we able to form a consensus viewpoint?

I note that per the BOF website there is no-one listed as having been appointed by the Board to Chair the Talent & Performance Steering Group.

I note that per the BOF website there is no-one listed as having been appointed by the Board as an English "Expert" to "represent the views and needs of England and the England Associations; to act as a contact point for members within England".

We're not a shy lot on here - surely there must be a way to have somebody who is sympathetic to the "full team" viewpoint appointed to fill one of these posts if they are still vacant.

[Mrs H]

Is the steering group in place to keep a check on the performance staff?

I was wondering who was accountable for not having a programme in place which produced 6 girls who were indisputably good enough to be selected for JWOC given the amount of hours, both paid and voluntary - which seem to be spent on coaching.

To be honest I'm not surprised that BOF have wrested back the EYOC selections from the regional squads - to have a competitor in producing junior international results might have been a tad embarrassing for them.

Maybe it's not the selections we should be so concerned about but the junior performance programme itself.

Imagine if this was a football team.......

[eddie]

(Note these are my views not views of any body I work/volunteer for etc etc)

Hi everyone

It is probably clear that this debate will extend beyond 11 pages.

Fundamentally ask yourself these questions.

1. British Orienteering has a performance programme. British Orienteering has stated in the selection policy the aim of the performance programme is

'The objective of The Policy is to support The Programme in the achievement of its targets. In particular The Policy aims to support the development of athletes who show the ability or potential to produce top ten results at the World Orienteering Championships in the current season or in future seasons.'

What is your view on the aim of the performance programme?

2. If you agree with British Orienteering's ambition then what do you think is the best way to get there? (Conversely if you disagree with the ambition what should the ambition be and how do you get to that?)

Note that we live in singularly the most unique time in performance sport in the UK both in terms of investment £100s of millions and results (record Olympic and World level success). With this investment there is a high amount of evidence about how to develop talent. You don't ping £100s of millions on a hunch and you can see the results sports are getting. I'd also add that some of these performances programmes are horrific brutal places to be (read Victoria Pendleton's book). Note - I don't believe British Orienteering is that way structured. If you have the 'orienteering is different' view then it would be interesting to understand how and why it is different.

Note. I'm not using this to put forward a defence or critique of the current system (i'll use the correct channels for that).

In short use this debate constructively with an evidence base - people will then listen.