The last races of the 2013 season are coming up this weekend. Some classes are already decided. Others are still up for grabs. Congratulations to those who go on to win, but is anyone else taking any notice? Put another way, is the UK O League fulfilling it's purpose?
In my opinion it looks a bit like an attendance award. Many classes will be won by one of the very few to have finished the requisit 10 events. Despite the fact that my family have benefitted from the present system (we're addicts), I don't feel this is right. In my class (M45) the outstanding athlete this year has been James Logue. He won't win because he won't have done 10 events. Is not the purpose to determine the best all-round orienteer in each class?
How to improve the format? Here's my sugestion:
The whole league should take place within the main spring season (March to May).
All three British Champs (Sprint, Middle, Long) should be included.
All three days of JK should count (scored as 3 separate races).
4 other 'big' events (ideally 2x 2day weekends) should be included. Next year an obvious candidate would be the Northern Champs w/e.
Best 6 scores from the 10 races to count.
OK, next year the British Sprint and Middle are in September but I'd still include these.
If there's a requirement for competition over the rest of the year, why not have a separate Autumn League with 10 races over the September to November period?
UK O League
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Re: UK O League
Homer wrote:Put another way, is the UK O League fulfilling it's purpose?
Yes.
BOF wrote: The primary objectives of the competition are as follows:
Encourage greater participation at a national level and thus increase the quality of competition.
Provide competition in a variety of terrain types, across the United Kingdom.
Promote new and alternative event formats.
Provide an excellent sporting experience.
Is not the purpose to determine the best all-round orienteer in each class?
Nope (see above), that's the job of the ranking list. Which correctly identifies James as the undisputed number 1.
1 (29) James Logue EPOC 1968 M 8003
2 (81) Martin Ward SYO 1967 M 7840
3 (86) Charlie Adams SYO 1964 M 7828
4 (86) Alan Velecky SO 1966 M 7828
5 (89) David Rollins BAOC 1965 M 7822
It's not my job to stick up for BOF, and I've no interest in where I am in UKOL either. But there's really no point in handing out another bauble to go with your BOC and JK medals. If we have to have a UKOL, it should be distinct from the other competitions. It's especially good to have something to aim for if you happen to get injured in the overcrowded Spring season.
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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Re: UK O League
A League is different to a Championship. The latter depends on a single performance (give or take); a league measures performance over a 'season'. So keep the UKOL over the full season and the number of counting scores high enough to encourage competition across regional areas.
- cbg
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Re: UK O League
Well, now the 2013 UKOL has finished, I wait with high anticipation to find out who the winners were....
I'm not convinced the league has had a lot of effect in terms of encouraging greater participation. Neither has it increased the quality of competition. No events (or new formats) have been put on that wouldn't have been without the UKOL. Therefore, in my opinion (even if you accept it's not about finding the best orienteers), it has not gone far in meeting it's primary objectives.
I thought the UKOL replaced (and combined) the UK Cup, the Masters Cup and the Future Champions Cup? I'm not too worried about providing meaningful competition for us vets, but I do feel something is needed for the juniors in particular. The format I suggested would work well as a FCC replacement. I do know the difference between a championship and a league, but not many people manage to win all three British Championship disciplines and all 3 days of the JK in the same year and therefore a league combining these would be of interest.
However, judging by the response to this thread and the turn out of juniors at the last weekend of UKOL, I'm probably talking to myself.
How the final results (and winners) are announced now will surely influence the success of next year's League.
I'm not convinced the league has had a lot of effect in terms of encouraging greater participation. Neither has it increased the quality of competition. No events (or new formats) have been put on that wouldn't have been without the UKOL. Therefore, in my opinion (even if you accept it's not about finding the best orienteers), it has not gone far in meeting it's primary objectives.
I thought the UKOL replaced (and combined) the UK Cup, the Masters Cup and the Future Champions Cup? I'm not too worried about providing meaningful competition for us vets, but I do feel something is needed for the juniors in particular. The format I suggested would work well as a FCC replacement. I do know the difference between a championship and a league, but not many people manage to win all three British Championship disciplines and all 3 days of the JK in the same year and therefore a league combining these would be of interest.
However, judging by the response to this thread and the turn out of juniors at the last weekend of UKOL, I'm probably talking to myself.
![Confused :?](./images/smilies/icon_confused.gif)
How the final results (and winners) are announced now will surely influence the success of next year's League.
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Homer - diehard
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Re: UK O League
Homer wrote:No events (or new formats) have been put on that wouldn't have been without the UKOL.
All the 2013 UKOL events were on the fixtures list before the work to setup UKOL was done. Not sure if that is changing for future years. Clubs were asked whether they wanted their event to be part of the league.
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Re: UK O League
IMHO a nice looking stats website (athlete profile, etc) would make the UKOL a lot more interesting to me. Something like http://www.runbritainrankings.com/runne ... teid=11736
The series has also been quite low profile even on the BOF website - there is no mention of it on http://www.britishorienteering.org.uk/ without going into subpages or doing a search.
Seeing also as I suspect the UK community tends to be on Nopesport/social media more than on BOF, I'm also surprised there were no ads for it here ---->
The series has also been quite low profile even on the BOF website - there is no mention of it on http://www.britishorienteering.org.uk/ without going into subpages or doing a search.
Seeing also as I suspect the UK community tends to be on Nopesport/social media more than on BOF, I'm also surprised there were no ads for it here ---->
Stop talking, start running.
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Angry Haggis - blue
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Re: UK O League
Homer - tend to agree with you.
It seems strange that, when it comes to the new Sport England funded 'interventions', that they have a specific target audience. And the recent focus article on publicity also emphasises this fact.
Yet market stratification seems to have been ignored with this league. The 'experienced orienteer' is NOT a sufficiently defined target audience. The format may have worked for the Master's Cup, but that doesn't mean it will work for everyone... Some of the best UK Cup/FCC races were stand-alone events.
If you filter the fixtures list by the UKOL competition, you'll find it is much of the same for the next 2 years. New formats/innovation? Little to none. Increased participation/better competition? Not immediately obvious. Excellent sporting experience? If you choose the big events, you're likely to get a big event experience. But has UKOL status added anything extra to the events/changed the way organisers thought about things? Not convinced.
And, to top it all, the seeming lack of ownership means it is less visible than any of its predecessors, to both participants and to the outside world. If this was a vehicle for sponsorship, someone isn't doing a very good job.
It seems strange that, when it comes to the new Sport England funded 'interventions', that they have a specific target audience. And the recent focus article on publicity also emphasises this fact.
Yet market stratification seems to have been ignored with this league. The 'experienced orienteer' is NOT a sufficiently defined target audience. The format may have worked for the Master's Cup, but that doesn't mean it will work for everyone... Some of the best UK Cup/FCC races were stand-alone events.
If you filter the fixtures list by the UKOL competition, you'll find it is much of the same for the next 2 years. New formats/innovation? Little to none. Increased participation/better competition? Not immediately obvious. Excellent sporting experience? If you choose the big events, you're likely to get a big event experience. But has UKOL status added anything extra to the events/changed the way organisers thought about things? Not convinced.
And, to top it all, the seeming lack of ownership means it is less visible than any of its predecessors, to both participants and to the outside world. If this was a vehicle for sponsorship, someone isn't doing a very good job.
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distracted - addict
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Re: UK O League
If the idea is to encourage participation then the scoring system needs to change. Its designed only with the top orienteers in mind.
If you look at some scores, its clear they reflect numbers on the course rather than actual performance. Same could probably be said of the pre-existing competitions
33 Max Carcas INT 172 42 40 23 0 24 26 17 0 0
Max I would say is above average for his age, but look at the range of his scores. He may as well not have turned up to the 6 day or JK if the UKOL was his aim.
If you are going to have an interest in the competition as a mid-low range orienteer (and therefore participate) then points should reflect performance against peers, not simply that there were 50 better orienteers there.
If you look at some scores, its clear they reflect numbers on the course rather than actual performance. Same could probably be said of the pre-existing competitions
33 Max Carcas INT 172 42 40 23 0 24 26 17 0 0
Max I would say is above average for his age, but look at the range of his scores. He may as well not have turned up to the 6 day or JK if the UKOL was his aim.
If you are going to have an interest in the competition as a mid-low range orienteer (and therefore participate) then points should reflect performance against peers, not simply that there were 50 better orienteers there.
Orienteering - its no walk in the park
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Re: UK O League
Homer wrote:Well, now the 2013 UKOL has finished, I wait with high anticipation to find out who the winners were....
....still waiting....anticipation died off a bit now though...
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Homer - diehard
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Re: UK O League
andypat wrote:If you are going to have an interest in the competition as a mid-low range orienteer (and therefore participate) then points should reflect performance against peers, not simply that there were 50 better orienteers there.
Don't we have that system (the BO Ranking List) already Andy?
As a mid-low range orienteer, I have to admit that the UK O League has zero attraction to me. Unlimited funds and unlimited time to travel round the country attending events would make it only marginally more attractive. I personally doubt that the UKOL gives an incentive to more than a tiny fraction of my club's membership. There seems to be much more interest in the two club league competitions and the Scottish O League.
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Re: UK O League
A UK wide O-League is always only going to appeal to part of the orienteering world, whatever you do with formats, scoring systems etc. Personally, I think British Orienteering completely screwed up by getting rid of the UKCup/FCC/Masters Cup formats, but the current system could succeed if they (and I do mean 'they', as it was 'they' who insisted on changing things) put a decent amount of effort into promotion. But they have put in absolutely zilch.
I am one of those who has made an effort to get to O-League races, and have enjoyed the racing against others who have done the same. I've certainly enjoyed races i wouldn't have otherwise gone to (the November Classic weekend was a prime example). My feelings are, however, that even though it is a poor replacement for the Masters Cup format, it could succeed in its current format but that the energy and drive that such a competition needs from its 'promoters' is totally missing.
It could work if British Orienteering provides some of that - but I'm not holding my breath. As it is, I see it as an absolutely prime example of everything that has gone wrong in the governance of orienteering in this country over the past few years, in particular the massively backward steps that British Orienteering has been taking in terms of its ever greater remoteness, over-centralisation and removal of any sense of ownership of the sport from those participating.
I am one of those who has made an effort to get to O-League races, and have enjoyed the racing against others who have done the same. I've certainly enjoyed races i wouldn't have otherwise gone to (the November Classic weekend was a prime example). My feelings are, however, that even though it is a poor replacement for the Masters Cup format, it could succeed in its current format but that the energy and drive that such a competition needs from its 'promoters' is totally missing.
It could work if British Orienteering provides some of that - but I'm not holding my breath. As it is, I see it as an absolutely prime example of everything that has gone wrong in the governance of orienteering in this country over the past few years, in particular the massively backward steps that British Orienteering has been taking in terms of its ever greater remoteness, over-centralisation and removal of any sense of ownership of the sport from those participating.
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awk - god
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Re: UK O League
Sunlit Forres wrote:andypat wrote:If you are going to have an interest in the competition as a mid-low range orienteer (and therefore participate) then points should reflect performance against peers, not simply that there were 50 better orienteers there.
Don't we have that system (the BO Ranking List) already Andy?
As a mid-low range orienteer, I have to admit that the UK O League has zero attraction to me. Unlimited funds and unlimited time to travel round the country attending events would make it only marginally more attractive. I personally doubt that the UKOL gives an incentive to more than a tiny fraction of my club's membership. There seems to be much more interest in the two club league competitions and the Scottish O League.
Correct, and therefore IMO the UKOL is a bit redundant. But I did try and participate when it was the Masters (with the same scoring system) and rapidly got disillusioned as I found my scores depended on the size of the field rather than my relative performance.
Orienteering - its no walk in the park
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Re: UK O League
Sunlit Forres wrote:There seems to be much more interest in the two club league competitions and the Scottish O League.
There's an interesting gap between perception and reality here. In your club only freefall, EddieH and the Barr family have the require 4/7 SOL scores - and they all ran in more UKOL events than SOLs. And yet you genuinely believe there is some big interest in the SOL competition (I'm pleased at that - its my job as Scottish Competitions Convenor. to perpetuate this fallacy, so I should probably shut up)
I think what's really going on with SOL, is that there's an implicit promise that the organising club will make a special effort for this event. It's a flag for quality of the event rather than the league competition itself. The bargain works both ways - quality is high, so people come, so the importance of quality is recognised.
Nobody has figured out what UKOL is for. e.g. if it was to apply a SOL-like flag of quality at national level, it wouldn't include JK and BOC which don't need the additional kudos. Just like SOL doesn't include the Scottish Champs or 6-day.
Last edited by graeme on Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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Re: UK O League
andypat wrote: And yet you genuinely believe there is some big interest in the SOL competition
Compared with UKOL yes. I don't recall a single mention of it in either club committee meetings or car park conversations, but I do know that the club regularly bids to put on a SOL (as is the case in 2014). It also encourages members to attend SOLs, albeit perhaps not with the success one might hope for.
You're dead right about SOL being a benchmark for quality. It's a brand that's been pretty much unchanged for quite a few years now. Clubs want to be associated with it. I also agree with the rest of what you say.
Moravian is very top heavy with people who have come in to the sport over the last 2 or 3 years. The club stages an excellent programme of quality local events, and many don't feel the need (or have the resources) to give up whole days to travel regularly to faraway events, no matter what their quality. Hopefully, as some of these relative newcomers progress, they will eventually want to make attendance at SOLs more of a priority.
The future of orienteering is not just with die hards who will travel round the country every weekend. A strong local scene is just as as important, if not more.
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