Championship dinkies courses

[Stodgetta]

It surprised me looking at the course lengths for the dinkies courses for JK this weekend (not a criticism of the planners etc), that the M/W10A's are on for 3.3km and the M/W12A's for 4.1km on Saturday, a little less on Sunday, but still well beyond your typical yellow/orange course guidelines.
Looking back, in 2005, the the 10's had 2.6km, while the 12's had 3km, and at BOC in 2002, the 10's had 2.3km, the 12's 2.7km.
Is this increase in course length because the elites have got more elite and run further now than they have in the past, & so the course length ratios have meant the dinkies have further to go? 4.1km for a competent 10 year old running W12A is a long way...

[Happy]

I had thought the same about the M/W 12's, when the norm is anywhere between 2.7 & 3.3km and then going to 4km or more it will certainly be a challenge!

[andypat]

I dont know but I remember from my one experience of the JK when at school that it was significantly harder/longer than anything I'd done before. Maybe its meant to be?

[sloaner]

The youth of today are getting soft....

I remember someone saying the first control on my first JK (M10 course) in Fernworthy was harder than the first on M21E!!

[graeme]

For practical considerations of "too long for dinkies" the length of these courses should include the walk to the start. It's not far on Day 3 (can't see it on day 2). I believe a 600m walk to the start plus a 3km course is better than a 2km walk and a 1.6km course
(noting that these entail identical walks for the child).

Obviously 600m + 1.6km is best, but that's not always possible.

[DJM]

From the JK individual competition rule

4.4.4 For the courses of TD1-3 (particularly courses 27-29) it is more important that the course is of the correct TD than of the correct length – it will often be the case that the nature of the terrain forces the course length away from the precise course length ratio given above. Also, these courses must not be made harder than usual “because it’s the JK”.

[jac]

Stodgetta wrote

It surprised me looking at the course lengths for the dinkies courses for JK this weekend (not a criticism of the planners etc), that the M/W10A's are on for 3.3km and the M/W12A's for 4.1km on Saturday, a little less on Sunday, but still well beyond your typical yellow/orange course guidelines.

As one of the planners for Saturday, I can confirm that the courses are all in accordance with the 2013 version of the appropriate guideline. There is no guideline for course length at the JK; courses are planned to have length of specified proportion of a nominal M Elite course of appropriate winning time. And the Elite men run faster on Hambleden than on almost any other Level A area. It is not clear to me why terrain runnability for Elites should be assumed to correlate with path runnability for 'dinkies'. But we do what the guidelines tell us.

Note that the guidelines do specify that courses of White and Yellow standard should have controls every xxx metres, so competitors will not go too far astray or lose interest. My son did the White course at the Southern championships at Hambleden in 2011 at the age of 6; longer that he usually ran, for guideline reasons, but he was not distressed or bored.

At the other end of the age scale, I have also had a comment noting that W85s are significantly less strong than W70s, so the guideline-consistent W70+ course will keep the W85s busy for a long time.

Having worked with the guidelines, I think that they are good enough to keep most of the people happy most of the time, and provide a good framework for planners and controllers to provide appropriate courses. There might be an argument for allowing a little more freedom in choosing lengths for courses for the very old and very young competitors.

[rob f]

I thought the guidelines depended on M21L, as the Elite is a middle distance race?

[graeme]

Nope, its based on what the M21E length would be if it was a Long course. That's why Seamus said "nominal" - I think he knows the elite is middle distance.
Whether its the best way to determine M/W10 is another issue. But if the planner has young kids, and is somewhat happy, I'm sure it will be fine.

[Red Adder]

In the SE most dinkies I suspect normally run 2.0 to 2.5 km courses so a 4.1 k course is 60-100 % greater than they normally do. I'm sure most will cope and have a lovely time (particularly if the weather improves). However for some, especially if there is a longish walk at one or both ends, then this may be overstretching. As Graeme says these are only guidelines and it may not be entirely appropriate to base junior course lengths on M21E. I trust someone (ie the controller) has actually stepped back and thought - this is to guidelines but is the challenge set both fair and sensible.

[NeilC]

Ignoring the lengths for a while the estimated winning time for M12 is given as 23-32 minutes and for M10 18-23 minutes. Based on the 2010 S. Champs results the winners are likely to hit that range.

Whether or not those EWTs are too long is another question, but one which would have been considered by the old Junior Competitions Group.

[King Penguin]

Really ?
Putting the various posts together :
12As - 4.1km in 23 - 32 mins = 5.6-min-kms for the fastest
10As - 3.3km in 18 - 23 mins = 5.45-min-kms for the fastest
Even on good paths and with no / minimal extra distance over that quoted this is going some.

[Glucosamine]

12As - 4.1km in 23 - 32 mins = 5.6-min-kms for the fastest
Even on good paths and with no / minimal extra distance over that quoted this is going some.

5.6min ks is nearly 9min miles. 'Dinkies' often scoot past me faster than that when I stagger out onto the path from the undergrowth, and the better ones don't seem to stop long at the path junction control that I am relocating from. Will they keep it up for 4km? They seem to manage for 5km at parkrun (even though declared as rather older). The issue does seem to be scaling runnability - runnable wood and muddy paths is a different recipe to thick wood and runnable paths.

PS Why dinkies? What have we against corgies?

[jac]

King Penguin wrote:

12As - 4.1km in 23 - 32 mins = 5.6-min-kms for the fastest
10As - 3.3km in 18 - 23 mins = 5.45-min-kms for the fastest

or 7.8 min/km for M12A and 7.0 min / km for M10A at the long end of the Estimated Winning Time range specified by Competition Rule G.

I have an unfortunate tendency to look at relevant facts rather than indulge in fanciful speculation. Thus: at the 2011 Southern Championships on the same area, the results (available to all, including King Penguin, at http://www.emituk.com/results/2011/1103 ... course.pdf), show that M10A / 3.2km was won in 20:56 (6:32/km), and M12A / 3.6km was won in 26:32 (7:22/km), both within the acceptable speed ranges.

Stodgetta wrote:

4.1km for a competent 10 year old running W12A is a long way...

Rightly or wrongly, the guidelines give estimated winning times and pay no attention to spread. There is no compulsion to run W12A; W12B is also available.

[Mrs H]

Gosh - we're all going to be glued to the 10 and 12 results now aren't we?