a good weekends races, but a couple of thoughts.
1. lack of atmosphere at the short race - was there anyway that the 'forest finish' could have been avoided? there was very little razmatazz for the winners/finishers. a shame considering its the national championships.
just having the various spectator crossings in the classic race made it a much more interesting event for all involved.
hmm.. thats about it, however congratulations to the champions - several years of hard work and commitment showing for Ewan, consistency in fast technical terrain seeing Helen as double champ, and Ed retaining his King of the Forest title, pulling a great run out of the bag when he said only a couple of months ago at the JK he was struggling over the classic distance.
BEOC
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definately second ben's thoughts on the spectator element of the elite courses, thought the planner did very well to create spectator interest etc - showed that commentary isn't always necessary to provide a good spectacle. The hi-tech scoreboard worked wonders too
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brooner - [nope] cartel
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looks like one of top performances of weekend goes to you though ben. 16th in classic sounds good. nice one.
- middleditch
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I have only done a handful of BEOC's but found the races really really lacking in, well, everything!
The courses were great, the areas were great, there was loads of accomodation nearby, it was a nice time of year to have them (it was sunny, people were peaking - yes I know, exams, but for the rest of the orienteering population it was tops), but with no one there to see the action, there was no atmosphere - it was so dead! How about:
Rehashing old arguments, but get the rest of the orienteering population there for what I think were technically the best races of the year by making it the british champs for all.
Give all age classes a British middle and sprint champs - show them what middle and sprint racing is all about. Appreciation of Jamie's sprint win, and other commendable elite middle & sprint performances would rise.
Give some prizes! Anything! Jenny Whitehead came 3rd and 2nd and got precisely NOTHING! Do we expect athletes that regularly go on expensive self funded training trips abroad to travel to a BEOC and get nothing in recognition for their efforts? How about scrapping all mugs etc for British champs and getting BOF to design and engrave a standard medal to award for the champs, in the same way that BUSA, Scottish Athletics, AAA, and the FRA do. Can't be that expensive, and is something you can savour for years. I know that my mum still shows us her BUSA gold medal for orienteering 30 years on (but mum, no one really took part 30 years ago did they?).
The courses were great, the areas were great, there was loads of accomodation nearby, it was a nice time of year to have them (it was sunny, people were peaking - yes I know, exams, but for the rest of the orienteering population it was tops), but with no one there to see the action, there was no atmosphere - it was so dead! How about:
Rehashing old arguments, but get the rest of the orienteering population there for what I think were technically the best races of the year by making it the british champs for all.
Give all age classes a British middle and sprint champs - show them what middle and sprint racing is all about. Appreciation of Jamie's sprint win, and other commendable elite middle & sprint performances would rise.
Give some prizes! Anything! Jenny Whitehead came 3rd and 2nd and got precisely NOTHING! Do we expect athletes that regularly go on expensive self funded training trips abroad to travel to a BEOC and get nothing in recognition for their efforts? How about scrapping all mugs etc for British champs and getting BOF to design and engrave a standard medal to award for the champs, in the same way that BUSA, Scottish Athletics, AAA, and the FRA do. Can't be that expensive, and is something you can savour for years. I know that my mum still shows us her BUSA gold medal for orienteering 30 years on (but mum, no one really took part 30 years ago did they?).
- Housewife
Definitely should be some prizes. Just been in Denmark for the Danes and Nogs EM test races and my Ravinen clubmate Christian Hansen had a great race to win the Middle distance test race. This wasn't a big event at all. But there was amazing competition there with all the best Norweigens and other jonny foreigners (Poles, a couple of Brits etc) on one course and all the best danes and Swedes (who were on a training camp) on a parallel course.
Anyway back to the point of prizes it wasn't even their National champs or anything yet Christain won voucher for 1000DEKs worth of Trimtex kit.
On the train home we discussed comparative recent winnings at British events and you are lucky (but not that lucky) to get a mug. I know it's probably all about sponsorship etc but top 3 at British Champs getting nothing. What did people get for the UK Cup? Hopefully lavish prizes after a season of entry fees. I would even be prepared to pay an small entry fee to register for UK Cup to cover Admin costs and so the eventual winners get lavish prizes.
Not sure I agree with having a British Champs for everyone in Sprint Distance tho, it'd be ok if it was a forest sprint like this year but the nature of a lot of sprint races makes it purely an elite discipline, the navigation is too easy if you aren't running really fast. Might be ok for people to plod round after on the same courses to compare themselves to the best, and generate more entry fee money for the lavish prizes..
Anyway back to the point of prizes it wasn't even their National champs or anything yet Christain won voucher for 1000DEKs worth of Trimtex kit.
On the train home we discussed comparative recent winnings at British events and you are lucky (but not that lucky) to get a mug. I know it's probably all about sponsorship etc but top 3 at British Champs getting nothing. What did people get for the UK Cup? Hopefully lavish prizes after a season of entry fees. I would even be prepared to pay an small entry fee to register for UK Cup to cover Admin costs and so the eventual winners get lavish prizes.
Not sure I agree with having a British Champs for everyone in Sprint Distance tho, it'd be ok if it was a forest sprint like this year but the nature of a lot of sprint races makes it purely an elite discipline, the navigation is too easy if you aren't running really fast. Might be ok for people to plod round after on the same courses to compare themselves to the best, and generate more entry fee money for the lavish prizes..
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harry - addict
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If anyone can get it working properly (there should be an animated view in there somewhere, and it keeps bailing out on me), I've uploaded the map & splits (some of the names have disappeared, don't ask me why, the positions are correct though) from the M21E at Culbin to odraw. Would be nice to see some other peoples' routes on there (sorry if it's a bit hard to read the map, it's a bit of a lo-res scan and I'd already drawn my course on it...)
Anyway, worth a try:
odraw
edit to add:
oh, and a (brief) mention of the classic results on the BOF site before on nopesport have all you miserable scots been out celebrating or something?
Anyway, worth a try:
odraw
edit to add:
oh, and a (brief) mention of the classic results on the BOF site before on nopesport have all you miserable scots been out celebrating or something?
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Ed - diehard
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Ed wrote:If anyone can get it working properly (there should be an animated view in there somewhere, and it keeps bailing out on me), I've uploaded the map & splits (some of the names have disappeared, don't ask me why, the positions are correct though) from the M21E at Culbin to odraw. Would be nice to see some other peoples' routes on there (sorry if it's a bit hard to read the map, it's a bit of a lo-res scan and I'd already drawn my course on it...)
Anyway, worth a try:
odraw
ok whats the secret ed? I've drawn my route (and it's still there when i go back into the draw part) but it won't save it so that its visible when you go to view, seems a few other folk are having the same problems, i've tried it in both ie6 and opera 7 but to no avail.
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brooner - [nope] cartel
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If people would still enjoy it then great but i'm just thinking the navigation is too easy if you aren't going sub 4 or 5mpks. Makes it a bit of a mockery. My coach and landlord here in Stockholm is always laughing at the people who go round the Stockholm City Cup races in over 20 mins and saying what is the point of them doing it, it's not orienteering for them, it's too easy as they aren't running fast enough, only elites should be allowed to do it.
I partly agree with him but then SCC make so much money from all these people and if they want to do it and enjoy it then fair enough.
A lot of vets are still really fast anyway so it would work. And good practice navigating at speed and learning the cost of mistakes for juniors. Yeah ok maybe have British Sprints for all classes, hadn't thought about it in detail i guess.
Must admit tho i find it quite amusing Mrs H using words like "jobby". Certainly totally embracing the nopesport culture.
I partly agree with him but then SCC make so much money from all these people and if they want to do it and enjoy it then fair enough.
A lot of vets are still really fast anyway so it would work. And good practice navigating at speed and learning the cost of mistakes for juniors. Yeah ok maybe have British Sprints for all classes, hadn't thought about it in detail i guess.
Must admit tho i find it quite amusing Mrs H using words like "jobby". Certainly totally embracing the nopesport culture.
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harry - addict
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I can see the Swedish dudes point, but I think it's bobbins. Speed is relative. If a competitor is running flat out, then they won't be able to navigate as well. Simple. Doesn't matter whether you are dong 5 m/Km, 10 m/km or more. I appreciate in an absolute sense there is less time etc to make route choices if you are going fast, but that is always the case wherever you are isn't it? What does he want? Fat knackers to O' round miniture forests, or lego land? Nonsense. When I did Venice it was ace, I ran faster than usual (think sloth on amphetamines) and found navigation tricky and fun. Now I understand that BEOC is a different discipline to a straight forward street event like Venice, and BEOC certainly has its place. But I think that the principle that non-elites can't enjoy a short race is absurd, for instance my course at Venice was about the same length as the BEOC short race! I'd happily put my pennies towards a winners pot to take part in a short punters race after the elites.
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Migsy - white
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It's good that we are both open to new ideas then. I'm afraid if we Vets were worried about what other people thought about us all the time we'd never venture out of the door let alone into the forest. it is one of the (very) small consolations of growing older - you stop giving a [nope] about what other people think about what you look like and how long you took when you did a course 'cos you know compared to 95% of the adult population you're a bloody hero Bring on the sprint races (I'll still find the navigation challenging and everyone will laugh at me - what the hell - it's better than making them cry.)
I made my song a coat
Covered with embroideries
Out of old mythologies
From heel to throat;
but the fools caught it,
wore it in the world's eyes
As though they'd wrought it.
Song, let them take it,
For there's more enterprise
In walking naked.
I made my song a coat
Covered with embroideries
Out of old mythologies
From heel to throat;
but the fools caught it,
wore it in the world's eyes
As though they'd wrought it.
Song, let them take it,
For there's more enterprise
In walking naked.
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Mrs H. - nope godmother
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Housewife wrote:Rehashing old arguments, but get the rest of the orienteering population there for what I think were technically the best races of the year by making it the british champs for all.
It would be nice if the rest if the orienteering population showed up for and spectated at the BEOC.
But, of the GB team for the Europeans, only one of the six men, and two of the seven women actually finished the classic. So what do the elites actually have to offer in the way of spectating top runners? If they expect us punters to take the BEOC seriously, the elites first have to take them seriously themselves.
As for the races, very well done to Ewan, Ed and Helen for well deserved victories. For Ewan and Ed I hope the title "British Champion" more than makes up for the lost opportunity to finish somewhere in the pack in Denmark. I though the courses were absolutely excellent, and achieving this was rightly the priority for the tiny organising club (Moravian - the strain on resources was very visible in the spectator races). I thought there was only one dodgy control (#5 on M21E) and though it was a shame there were no medium or long legs in the classic it is very difficult very difficult to do that on Lossie.
Graeme
PS How the heck do you navigate in the intricate bit at Lossie? I walked carefully in a straight line with magnifier on the map all the way and came out thinking I'd done OK - but I seem to have lost 3-4 minutes.
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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i think when you say that if you ain't running sub 5 mins per km theres no point doing them. you have to consider that 'slower' people are still running as fast as they can and so are as tired as elites hence affecting all their decisions and map reading etc. they will run to their maximum as well as elites just it won't be as quick. It will obviously give them more time to assess the detail and such but its still a well worth and enjoyable exercise.
- Guest
[It would be nice if the rest if the orienteering population showed up for and spectated at the BEOC.
But, of the GB team for the Europeans, only one of the six men, and two of the seven women actually finished the classic. So what do the elites actually have to offer in the way of spectating top runners? If they expect us punters to take the BEOC seriously, the elites first have to take them seriously themselves. ]
You missed my point Graeme. With such a great area and such good courses, why was this not the British champs for all? Why should the rest of the orienteetring population put up with very poor areas such as Simonside? I certainly don't expect the rest of the orienteering population to turn up just to spectate! So few elites can as it was not a selection race, and for me the draw of it being the british champs has diminished significantly through having it seperate to the rest of the british champs races. Not sure why, but it seems so much less of an event.
Would be interested to hear whether the vets age classes would be interested in having middle and sprint races. I'm sure most of them have never done a sprint / middle in their lives.[/quote]
But, of the GB team for the Europeans, only one of the six men, and two of the seven women actually finished the classic. So what do the elites actually have to offer in the way of spectating top runners? If they expect us punters to take the BEOC seriously, the elites first have to take them seriously themselves. ]
You missed my point Graeme. With such a great area and such good courses, why was this not the British champs for all? Why should the rest of the orienteetring population put up with very poor areas such as Simonside? I certainly don't expect the rest of the orienteering population to turn up just to spectate! So few elites can as it was not a selection race, and for me the draw of it being the british champs has diminished significantly through having it seperate to the rest of the british champs races. Not sure why, but it seems so much less of an event.
Would be interested to hear whether the vets age classes would be interested in having middle and sprint races. I'm sure most of them have never done a sprint / middle in their lives.[/quote]
- Guest
Greame,
All the controls I missed several people mentioned to me that they had missed with comments like 'what was going on at number...'
In the dunes you'd navigate in really carefully to a point following some well defined contour shape of a slope on the map and on the ground but as soon as it went from contour shapes to knolls(dot, rings and form lines) the whole thing would explode on you.
Fistly there doesn't seem to be a consistent use of symbols - ring, dot, form line for the knolls which I think is because you can't actually fit them all in using the right symbols ( or even using dots )
Secondly where the map just shows knolls there is no sense of the underlying shape of the ground, the foundations that the knolls are sitting on. Again, you wouldn't be able to fit shape contours in along with all the knolls and be able to read it.
Conclusion, some parts of Lossie can't be mapped adequately even at 1:10
If the detail can't be mapped then you can't navigate by the detail.
People who mentioned that they had hit the controls I had missed had done it by using something other than the contour detail , eg compass and pacing from a clear attack point, allied with a rapidly rotating head to scan the terrain and an awareness of which side of the feature the control would be situated.
So the answer to your question....
by ignoring the map !
All the controls I missed several people mentioned to me that they had missed with comments like 'what was going on at number...'
In the dunes you'd navigate in really carefully to a point following some well defined contour shape of a slope on the map and on the ground but as soon as it went from contour shapes to knolls(dot, rings and form lines) the whole thing would explode on you.
Fistly there doesn't seem to be a consistent use of symbols - ring, dot, form line for the knolls which I think is because you can't actually fit them all in using the right symbols ( or even using dots )
Secondly where the map just shows knolls there is no sense of the underlying shape of the ground, the foundations that the knolls are sitting on. Again, you wouldn't be able to fit shape contours in along with all the knolls and be able to read it.
Conclusion, some parts of Lossie can't be mapped adequately even at 1:10
If the detail can't be mapped then you can't navigate by the detail.
People who mentioned that they had hit the controls I had missed had done it by using something other than the contour detail , eg compass and pacing from a clear attack point, allied with a rapidly rotating head to scan the terrain and an awareness of which side of the feature the control would be situated.
So the answer to your question....
by ignoring the map !
If you could run forever ......
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Kitch - god
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