New FC charges

[frog]

I've noticed a couple of new forestry commission charges for our forthcoming event in Tayside. The FC rep asked me if I planned to have a caterer on their land, if so there is a charge of £50. When I enquired about car access to put out controls the day before the event I got a reply saying this would require vehicle access permission which costs £50. This hadn't been mentioned when I sent in the form months ago asking for permission for the event that mentioned having 2-4 vehicles in the forest for set up/ marshalling etc and mentioned us having access the day before the event. I'm currently enquiring about whether this is per vehicle / pre day or per event but it is all rather depressing as many of our forests are on FC land.

[smf]

I've noticed a couple of new forestry commission charges for our forthcoming event in Tayside. The FC rep asked me if I planned to have a caterer on their land, if so there is a charge of £50. When I enquired about car access to put out controls the day before the event I got a reply saying this would require vehicle access permission which costs £50. This hadn't been mentioned when I sent in the form months ago asking for permission for the event that mentioned having 2-4 vehicles in the forest for set up/ marshalling etc and mentioned us having access the day before the event. I'm currently enquiring about whether this is per vehicle / pre day or per event but it is all rather depressing as many of our forests are on FC land.

This has all been reported on the SOA website
http://www.scottish-orienteering.org/so ... tland-land
However I don't think the agreement has been signed yet. Speak to Colin (Freefall)

[frog]

I thought it hadn't been signed and agreed yet so am surprised these charges are creeping in already. They just had a car rally in the forest last weekend. I wonder if they charge them £50 each as well.

[Freefall]

Nothing has been signed or agreed and they are charging anyway in some areas, especially Tay. I am meeting the FCS along with SOA President next Wednesday to discuss. I would like to say I am optimistic that there will be a reasonable compromise but am not so sure.

[Roomungous]

MOR have been stung by the £50 vehicle charge twice already this year. It has been £50 for up to 5 vehicles to go beyond the normal barriers. We took it on the chin both times, as we felt it wasn't fair for organisers/planners to suffer significantly when control placing/collecting etc. However, I do feel agrieved when it is charged on top of the already hefty Car Parking fees for Roseisle or Culbin, where the FC is taking a good margin from our competitors already.

[EddieH]

I thought that the law allowed them to charge for reasonable recuperation of expenses. How they cna conceivably justify £50 to take a car into the forest I cannot understand. In fact I cannot understand how they can possibly justify the figures they are talking about for any large event.

If I understand the law correctly I'd havve thought that a legal challenge might be profitable.

[Clive Coles]

Good luck Frefall in your negotiations.

We do I think all need to brace ourselves for an increase in access fees on FC forest land ~ the economic situation and reducing Government funding for the Public Forest Estate ( i.e cuts) means the FC needs to make up defecits from somewhere. Forestry is a long term business ~ you cannot just cut down more trees to create more income as trees take years before they are ready for harvesting.

So, in the immediate term, they have to both reduce costs and raise income if their services are to be sustained. Following restructuring we have lost 50% of our resident staff in our local FC forest in the last year ~ public facilities are being withdrawn. I fear there are more losses to come.

The situation in Scotland seems to be even more complex due to the devolved powers and responsibilities. But the underlying problem is the same. Government funding for our Forests is being curtailed whilst costs are rising.

In England the Government funding for the Public Forest Estate is due to reduce by a further £2m next year and a further £4m in 2014. FC have little choice but to both reduce costs/headcount and raise more income from Forest users.

Tough times ahead.

[Gross]

In England the Government funding for the Public Forest Estate is due to reduce by a further £2m next year and a further £4m in 2014.

Only because of the excesses of the previous government

[Red Adder]

The most eye-watering charges I've come across on FC land is at the WAOC/CUOC High Lodge forest. In addition to the normal access fees they have to pay each car is charged £1.90 an hour - up to a maximum of £ 10. It makes it a pretty expensive event and not surprisingly the clubs don't use the area (which is large - about three different A4 footprints) as much as they used to 10 years ago.

[Freefall]

There is no right in Scotland to charge for access and indeed this is what FCS is saying. Within the Scottish Outdoor Access Code there is a reference to Sporting and other Events (part 5) in which it says "land managers sometimes hire out their land for sporting events etc etc". There was also a guide produced in 2009 by the Cairngorms National Park Authority for local circumstanceswhich said "where a land manager's permission is required they can also maker an appropriate charge. For events that are not commercial, this will often be closely tied to the cost of drawing up any written agreements, management time and/or facilities provided". This document also gave timescales for undertaking activities, linked to number of competitors. What has happened was described at one meeting I recently attended is that there is "guidance creep". What was written for one specific set of circumstances has been incorporated into another document called "Outdoor events in Scotland: guidance for organisers and land managers" almost verbatim. This has been picked up on by the FCS and is being used as the basis for their right to charge. One club member has pointed out that this is really a loophole in the Land Reform Act whereby admin charges can be used (and are being used) to deter access. It is not clear how sympathetic politicians would be - so far complaints to MSPs have been answered by the FCS who say they are looking for a reasonable balance of charges for offsetting their costs. Mounting a legal challenge would be outwith our resources so it seems that the best we can hope for is indeed reasonable charges.

[Clive Coles]

Gross said

Only because of the excesses of the previous government

Well may be some truth in that but...... once the money has gone what do you do about the black hole ?

Pointing the finger and blaming previous administrations does not generate income and revenue is something that the forests need to sustain operations.

If Govenment funding is being reduced where does FCGB ( i.e FCS, FCE and FCW ) make up the shortfall ?

Sadly it is most likely to come by raising charges in England and Wales at least ~ seems that Scottish legislation presents some protection from that unpleasent thought. But time will tell. Perhaps Scotland's First Minister has some reserve that he can draw from.

[mikey]

Perhaps Scotland's First Minister has some reserve that he can draw from.

He can always sell it all to Donald Trump.

[Gross]

Perhaps Scotland's First Minister has some reserve that he can draw from.

There is oil in the forests & it's ours [or that might be wishful thinking!]

[AndyC]

. Mounting a legal challenge would be outwith our resources so it seems that the best we can hope for is indeed reasonable charges.

As long as they don't know that, the suggestion that we/you might take legal action might be enough for them to see reason (it's a bluff I've used before -never play me at poker!)

[mappingmum]

On the Scottish News tonight there was a report about the Scottish Conker Champs being *saved* by the supply of conkers from Cambridgeshire.

Part of the report included an interview with person wearing Forestry Commission fleece showing a large supply of conkers in the passenger footwell of a car. Der der-der-der daaa!