can anyone advise - in competition area prior to event

[andypat]

Be careful.... why?

Well I was assuming you were a "nooomember" and didnt want you getting yourself a bad name by inadvertently blurting out something you might regret. However it seems you already have a bad name...

[seabird]

The only volunteer I saw in the forest was there for a real purpose.

He certainly would not have been able to see any of the controls on his course, or get any advantage in going to and from his work position - if indeed he ran a course.

And even if he had been able to see one or two, as others have said, - so what?

Nooomember - my foot!

[NFKleanne]

I have to agree with Andy C - the only volunteers I saw - were on the water point, they drove there, and back, and from the point could not have gained any advantage and would have been to buzy looking out for runners rather than looking for controls!

[Sunlit Forres]

Oh dear. This has got me on to my biggest bugbear in orienteering. Thanks for alerting me to this thread Roo....... NOT !

I wish we'd stop being so anal about embargoes. Championship events - yes, absolutely. Other events, WHY ??

Why, oh why, do we shoot ourselves in the foot and deny use of some of our finest areas that beginners love to come to, just because we've got some 'level whatever' event in a few months' time?

As Moray's new(ish) RDO I've got this wonderful promotional tool ie Moray 2013 to throw at people. The message I'm trying to get out to Moray is that we want local people there. I want them to be part of the event. What I'd dearly love to do is put on a whole stack of local events in Lossie Forest, Culbin and Roseisle to give local newcomers to the sport some practice. Give them the confidence and incentive that they can enter the 6 days with a chance of actually doing OK because they know the area a bit. Get them to a few club events in the lead-up.

Every springtime, INVOC and Moravian hold the Moray & Highland Junior Orienteering Champs at Culbin. Some of you will no doubt have been to one. It's aimed at relative newcomers. It's a beautiful spot. it's got loads of parking. It's got toilets. It's got loads of paths - perfect for junior courses. Next year we'll have to move. Oh I know, well go to Roseisle. Great facilities there! Damn! That's embargoed too. How about Lossie Forest then? Hmm, too far from Highland region - and that's embargoed anyway.

As it happens, we've thought of a good alternative - Brodie Castle - but that doesn't really give us much chance to challenge the many developing kids in the local clubs. Need I say more?

If any decent orienteer is worried that a newcomer might come and deny you a podium place at a holiday festival event just 'cos he's done a couple of events there in the last few months (while you might have run there dozens of times in years past) I suggest you get doing some more training.

If a newcomer came to Roseisle after a few recces and pushed me down from 21st to 22nd on the M50S I'd be highly delighted. I'd have done my job.

I might have committed orienteering heresy by making this post, but it's what I think and now I've said it and I'd better go and hide somewhere. I have the best interests of our sport at heart.

[Nottinghamshire outlaw]

Well said Sunlit Forres! The people who care about embargoes probably aren't keen on developing newcomers!!!

[SJC]

I wish we'd stop being so anal about embargoes. Championship events - yes, absolutely. Other events, WHY ??

So you are happy for me to spend as much time training on next year's Scottish 6 Day areas as I want to ? It would certainly make for a pleasant holiday next June.

[mharky]

I was made non-comp at a INVOC colour coded event because when I was warming up along the tracks I had strayed out of sight of the start and into the "race" terrain. One of the main officials, can't remember which, came up to me as I came back to the start to demand my name so he could DSQ me in the results for going into the area. Strangely enough, when I came back from collecting controls after his event he didn't open his mouth to say anything.

I was very suprised that someone could be sad enough to care, but he must have genuinely thought that I went out on my warm to try and cheat. At first I was insulted that someone would think I would do that, but then I realised that the reason he thought I would do that is probably because he would do that.

To type of people who complain about these things, about people "cheating" by being in the area are the sorts of people who themselves would use such things to their advantage. They project their own sad tendencies onto other people.

Orienteering in this country needs to have a long look at itself. You can go to district level events and come across sad little jobsworths who have to do everything precisely by some imaginary book, and then you can go to major events with controls in the wrong place, or severe mapping issues.

The only events that need to have embargos are the various British Championships and JK. But I'm sure there are some sad people who would try to gain an advantage at much lower events than that.

I'm sure there are some people who think that the embargos should only apply to elite athletes, and in a way I think they are right. But the truth of the matter is, anyone capable of winning an elite course wouldn't even think about trying to cheat. It's the sad old men you need to watch out for.

[mharky]

I wish we'd stop being so anal about embargoes. Championship events - yes, absolutely. Other events, WHY ??

So you are happy for me to spend as much time training on next year's Scottish 6 Day areas as I want to ? It would certainly make for a pleasant holiday next June.

The only person who cares about your 6-days result is you.

[AndyC]

Can I just point out that the alleged offence involved being in the competition area after the first start (and therefore when the controls had already been placed) which is different from familiarising oneself with the terrain in advance or training in the area.
I do remember noting that there was a specific note in the final instructions for the White Rose prohibiting shadowing or running a colour code course before a competitive run obviously to prevent advantage from prior knowledge of control placement. I actually used a later control as a guide during my event and was aware that I found it easier to find when it mattered than others around me (despite an approach from the opposite direction) so there could be an advantage in spotting a control site in advance.
I will however echo the comment that the only official I saw in the competition area (excepting the Controller after the event had finished for the day ) was manning a drinks point on Saturday and would have gained absolutely no advantage as no controls were visible and the number of directions I saw people running in would have totally confused!

[nooomember]

As the White Rose seems to have been the only Level B this weekend I suspect it must be the event. On that basis I think I can work out from the start list who may be the "offender" but I'm wondering who the poster is - from brooner's comments ( I presume he can see IP addresses?) I jumped to a conclusion but I don't see that person in the lists.

Anyway if it is the WR the controller is a very approachable and pragmatic individual ( seen moving controls in the pouring rain on Saturday while I was peering through the rain to do the Trail O) and I would strongly suggest talking to him.

Firstly, I never said it was either this weekend or the White Rose event; but was a general fair question.
Secondly, I would assume Nopesport registration details are covered under the Data Protection Act.

[mikey]

As the White Rose seems to have been the only Level B this weekend I suspect it must be the event. On that basis I think I can work out from the start list who may be the "offender" but I'm wondering who the poster is - from brooner's comments ( I presume he can see IP addresses?) I jumped to a conclusion but I don't see that person in the lists.

Anyway if it is the WR the controller is a very approachable and pragmatic individual ( seen moving controls in the pouring rain on Saturday while I was peering through the rain to do the Trail O) and I would strongly suggest talking to him.

Firstly, I never said it was either this weekend or the White Rose event; but was a general fair question.
Secondly, I would assume Nopesport registration details are covered under the Data Protection Act.

May be you need to be more explicit about your concern then? Or would that be a folly?

[Sunlit Forres]

I wish we'd stop being so anal about embargoes. Championship events - yes, absolutely. Other events, WHY ??

So you are happy for me to spend as much time training on next year's Scottish 6 Day areas as I want to ? It would certainly make for a pleasant holiday next June.

If it makes you happy SJC then be my guest. As long as you keep smiling it will also support SOA's vision http://www.scottish-orienteering.org/search/results/b84e5d0065559f70b0e3f2a331ac470d. Come to think of it, Moray tourism might want to pick up on your rather good marketing idea - you can come and see the European Pipe Band Championships while you're at it - they're based in Forres in June.

[NeilC]

the BOF rules cover pretty well the fact that competitors are not allowed to gain a specific advantage by training on an area beforehand, in order to help them at an event, that they know will be on that area in the near future.

One could argue that holding a newcomers event on the area does not break the spirit of those rules. Different matter though if an experienced orienteer takes the opportunity of using that event to run on the area.

An embargo is a convenient way of enforcing these rules since there is no need to prove that anyone in the area is trying to gain an advantage.

For most Level B events any embargo is set by the organising body. For the SSD then presumably by the SSD company (there is no BOF rule that says an embargo has to be put in place). If the organising body is approached directly they may be willing to allow a newcomers event on the embargoed area.

Regarding the suggestion to only have embargoes for Level A events - remember many JWOC/WOC selection races are not Level A. Nor are the Home Internationals.

It's a lot harder to write rules than it is to critisise them, so I'd always recommned those that don't like a rule to write a better one, and post it on here for comment.

[roadrunner]

One could argue that holding a newcomers event on the area does not break the spirit of those rules. Different matter though if an experienced orienteer takes the opportunity of using that event to run on the area.

But the planner and controller of that event would certainly have gained unfair knowledge of the area, so it might be hard to organise.

[NeilC]

So ask the planner of the major event to plan the courses. Only needs be a level D event so no need for a controller.