British sprints and middle

[Sloop]

I too went down the steps to #37 and observed at least half-a-dozen people charging straight across the flowerbeds.

[NickC]

The gain for the three guys that jumped the flower bed whilst I used the steps was about 30-40m. Annoying at the time. Would there be a more sensible colour to use for uncrossable items that is clearer to see? Too much pink ruins the map and so would not work. Possibly the green/black with a minimum of 0.5 mm thickness?

[andypat]

With hindsight it might have been sensible just to tape off that particular flower bed since it was an obvious barrier to the fastest route. There was some rather bizarre unmapped taping right after the start of the heats which I gave a wide berth but confused me a little (probably it was in the final details )

I'd rather keep it olive green and if necessary tape it (or plan to avoid it) than map it black/green, this would really confuse me as I'd expect to see something more substantial mapped as black/green.

[Big Jon]

Don't you just love sprint races and the discussion they generate about crossing OOB areas, mapping of OOB areas, what is an OOB area? how small can an OOB area be, how can you map tiny OOB areas etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.
Get into a forest and do REAL orienteering.

[awk]

Don't you just love sprint races and the discussion they generate about crossing OOB areas, mapping of OOB areas, what is an OOB area? how small can an OOB area be, how can you map tiny OOB areas etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.
Get into a forest and do REAL orienteering.

After which you can have hours of fun discussing the rights and wrongs of crossing 'uncrossable' walls, the vagaries of maps (the mapping of vegetation is always good value), various bingo controls etc etc etc etc etc !

[andypat]

I heard a good story about an area considered to be a haven for wildlife and Big Jon the other day. Suffice to say it was considered impenetrable to humans but Big Jon proved them wrong...

[madmike]

He's human

[graeme]

I should probably stay out of this, as I'm being a bit hypocritical, but...

The gain for the three guys that jumped the flower bed whilst I used the steps was about 30-40m.

It's about 10m - 2s. Annoying when you see it, but no way can you tell from the splits.

On Sunday we lost more than that looking for controls hidden in pits, getting stuck in "optimistically" mapped marshes, queueing for the crossing point and running the wrong way round unmapped thickets. and we gained more than that by running to where we saw people punching, following people out of controls, chasing down slower folk or following cleaner navigators, and avoiding marshes we saw people getting stuck in. We heard the calls of "where's 43?" (this is normal for forest races, not a criticism on Sunday)

At some point, sprint races will need to lighten up, and where an accidental unfairness leads to negligible time gain, just live with it as we do in the forest. Obviously we're not there yet.

So if you see someone put a foot in a boundary-free, unmown, belittered and enturded bit of grass in Livingston, which I mapped as olive because its been adopted from the council, we don't want to know. They're not on the fastest line, and where we really care, there's tape, a major road, or a boundary you have to climb.

[Blonde bombshell]

What a great description by Graeme.

It's all the nit-picking that really turns me off urban racing.
How it can turn into pages & pages on here mystifies me.

Still, there's nowt so odd as folk!

[Oldman]

How it can turn into pages & pages on here mystifies me.

Also often applies to other topics

[madmike]

At some point, sprint races will need to lighten up, and where an accidental unfairness leads to negligible time gain, just live with it as we do in the forest.

Exactly, and to quote myself from the 7 Laws of Urban O - Law 6:

Accept the Cards you are Dealt - Accept that not everything is always going to be perfectly fair/how you expect. Parked cars can conceal routes (and controls), traffic and pedestrians can block your way, unmapped cranes can block your carefully chosen route, lorries can be reversing blocking your way for what seems like forever! Don’t get upset or distracted, just man (or woman!) up, and get on with the execution of your race.

[awk]

What a great description by Graeme.
It's all the nit-picking that really turns me off urban racing.
How it can turn into pages & pages on here mystifies me.

Often from those who are inexperienced at urban orienteering, or then go on to suggest we try something called 'real' orienteering, in terrain. Certainly, when I'm at events, the experienced urban orienteers are not averse to discussing the why's and wherefore's in some detail - it happens at terrain events too - but there's usually a recognition that this is the nature of the sport.

[Arnold]

I think for me the two questions to ask are:
1) Did you gain a significant time advantage
2) Was it intentional (ie you knew it was forbidden but did it anyway)

If the answer is No to both, then don't disqualify.

The intentionality is important for me too - if the oob is so small / hard to see that many people run through it, then I'd argue it's not their fault. Either it needs to be mapped bigger & clearer, or better taped out on the ground. Or of course you don't make it olive green in the first place and hope that most people will jump the flower bed rather than trampling the poor things on purpose.

As madmike says, you win some you lose some in sprint so less than 5 seconds gained for jumping a thin flowerbed shouldn't be cause for disqualification - if it wasn't intentional

[mikey]

Obviously jumping the narrow flower bed was not intentional cheating for most.

Maybe the difference was that I approached the flower bed and (bearing in mind that flower beds are highly likely to be out of bounds), saw it and checked how it was mapped.

Others saw the flower bed, jumped and then checked later how it was mapped.

My default position in urban o is that a flower bed is probably going to be OOB but I use the map to find out if that is the case!

[Spookster]

I think for me the two questions to ask are:
1) Did you gain a significant time advantage
2) Was it intentional (ie you knew it was forbidden but did it anyway)

If the answer is No to both, then don't disqualify.

The intentionality is important for me too - if the oob is so small / hard to see that many people run through it, then I'd argue it's not their fault. Either it needs to be mapped bigger & clearer, or better taped out on the ground. Or of course you don't make it olive green in the first place and hope that most people will jump the flower bed rather than trampling the poor things on purpose.

As madmike says, you win some you lose some in sprint so less than 5 seconds gained for jumping a thin flowerbed shouldn't be cause for disqualification - if it wasn't intentional

I agree with your second point, but not your first. You can't say it's ok to gain 5 seconds. Helen Bridle missed the British title by 2 seconds.

If you gain any time by taking an illegal route, you should be disqualified, even if it wasn't intentional.