I agree it would be cheaper but I tend to run with the map folded fairly small - other than relays, whre you have no choice - I would never look at the descriptions on the map be they on the back or front, I would always use the loose descriptions and I don't think I am alone in this.
I don't know about other people but when I am planning a leg, the first thing I look at is the control descrription and where is the control placed on the feature, this is an aid to visualising the control and most importantly where I think I can see the feature and even the flag from, which informs selection of the attackpoint. The last thing I think about is the number and to quote Per Holm at a low level event near Halden many years ago when I complained that the number on the control was different from that on the descriptions and I had lost time: he said "you must have known where you were from all the contours and there was only 1 crag in the circle, who looks at the number in these cases"....
BUCS this weekend....
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Re: BUCS this weekend....
hop fat boy, hop!
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madmike - guru
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Re: BUCS this weekend....
Little Hoddy wrote:Sure, you can have descriptions on your wrist, but wouldn't it actually be cheaper for organisers to put the codes next to the controls and print the full description sheet on the back or side of the map? Cut out loose descriptions all together.
You may not look at control descriptions. Last week's Midland Champs showed that others don't either, given the number who went to the crag bottom when the description read crag top. I'm with madmike (and others) on this one, using the descriptions all the time. The cost of loose descriptions is microscopic in event budget terms.
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awk - god
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Re: BUCS this weekend....
madmike wrote: The last thing I think about is the number and to quote Per Holm at a low level event near Halden many years ago when I complained that the number on the control was different from that on the descriptions and I had lost time: he said "you must have known where you were from all the contours and there was only 1 crag in the circle, who looks at the number in these cases"....
I dont think thats a good answer! I remember a race 12 or so years ago when I was returning to O after a period pounding the tar and the wrong code was on a control. I was checking everything then and while I was dithering around looking for "my" control (for 10min) several experienced people ran through the control and punched without a second glance! When I raised this at the finish with the organiser (now a good friend) he responded " Well noone else has complained!"
So bear in mind the less experienced orienteer needs the number as a reassurance he/she is at the right place!
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Re: BUCS this weekend....
I don't use loose descriptions if they are on the map -too much messing about for me (yes I know I end up folding and unfolding the map but I'll live with it) and to me the loose piece of paper could be regarded as potential litter. I often have to have the descriptions to prove I've paid but I usually leave them with the start team.
I do however read both control numbers and descriptions having lost places in the LEIOC summer league through punching a control that was too close to the correct one (I've forgiven the planner but learnt the lesson)
I do however read both control numbers and descriptions having lost places in the LEIOC summer league through punching a control that was too close to the correct one (I've forgiven the planner but learnt the lesson)
Possibly the slowest Orienteer in the NE but maybe above average at 114kg
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AndyC - addict
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Re: BUCS this weekend....
Little Hoddy wrote:to put the codes next to the controls and print the full description sheet on the back or side of the map? Cut out loose descriptions all together.
As a non-user of loose DS's I agree with the principle of putting everything on the map. Space often makes that difficult, but there is usually a reasonably satisfactory solution. The essential point is error-reduction by sticking to one integral item (and version). And there is the minor point of reducing loose litter. Cost must be minimal, but it does make more work for somebody, probably several somebodies.
Those who fold their map to 2 inches square have created their own problem
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Re: BUCS this weekend....
AndyC wrote:I don't use loose descriptions if they are on the map -too much messing about for me (yes I know I end up folding and unfolding the map but I'll live with it)
yes, but you're the worst orienteer in the North East, not the masses.
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Dave - brown
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Re: BUCS this weekend....
70plus wrote:Those who fold their map to 2 inches square have created their own problem
of course you could construct an equally valid argument that those of you who don't use loose control descriptions are creating your own, but different, problem
To evaluate the pros and cons we clearly need to ask wwtgd
what would Tero G do
hop fat boy, hop!
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madmike - guru
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Re: BUCS this weekend....
madmike wrote:what would Tero G do
use a control description holder.
http://www.ultimate-orienteering.com/?p=4252
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Dave - brown
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Re: BUCS this weekend....
Control codes on the map will not always be a good answer and so should ABSOLUTELY NOT become a requirement.
Many relays have sort legs and butterflies. If you put 1 - 34, 2 - 47 etc. how are you going to mark the centre of a butterfly? 7 / 10 / 13 - 67
Where are you going to place it so that its position is unambiguous, and how much vital detail are you going to obscure*?
If you only put the code, how can anyone know which way to go round a butterfly?
Yes I am sure i couldwork if the legs a re long and ther's plenty of room, but on a typical british relay I don't see it.
*[i] Please don't underestimatelst detail - planners are generally not good at breaking circles and lines and often take little notice of where the numbers go now.[/i]
Many relays have sort legs and butterflies. If you put 1 - 34, 2 - 47 etc. how are you going to mark the centre of a butterfly? 7 / 10 / 13 - 67
Where are you going to place it so that its position is unambiguous, and how much vital detail are you going to obscure*?
If you only put the code, how can anyone know which way to go round a butterfly?
Yes I am sure i couldwork if the legs a re long and ther's plenty of room, but on a typical british relay I don't see it.
*[i] Please don't underestimatelst detail - planners are generally not good at breaking circles and lines and often take little notice of where the numbers go now.[/i]
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Re: BUCS this weekend....
madmike wrote:of course you could construct an equally valid argument that those of you who don't use loose control descriptions are creating your own, but different, problem
But I don't have a problem unless I am issued at registration with a loose DS as a 'receipt', without being told that there isn't one on the map unit ...
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Re: BUCS this weekend....
EddieH wrote:Where are you going to place it so that its position is unambiguous, and how much vital detail are you going to obscure*?
Exactly, why don't we get the control number with the code added to the maps and rotate each one relative to the direction of the red line into the control... then it'll be even easier to read the code
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plain lazy - blue
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Re: BUCS this weekend....
EddieH wrote:Many relays have sort legs and butterflies. If you put 1 - 34, 2 - 47 etc. how are you going to mark the centre of a butterfly? 7 / 10 / 13 - 67
[/i]
Yes that is exactly how you are supposed to place the codes for a butterfly. it is not complicated at all. on all maps i have seen the butterfly centre number is placed slightly away from the centre circle anyway so it would not cause any extra confusion,
EddieH wrote:If you only put the code, how can anyone know which way to go round a butterfly?
[/i]
the central control is visited on every loop around a butter fly so it not hard to realise that you go to it more than once the wings are the controls that are important in working out the direction a butterfly is to be run.
EddieH wrote:Yes I am sure i couldwork if the legs a re long and ther's plenty of room, but on a typical british relay I don't see it.
[/i]
Well it was done at the harvester which worked extremely well so I think you are completely wrong it most certainly can be done on British relays.
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