I have been very upset by the British Orienteering decision to exclude me from future British Championship events. I am not quite so upset by the decision that I am ineligible for British Individual titles, it is the relay that gets to me as I would not expect to be put on an OD team making them uncompetitive and thus can't compete for my club. While most other countries are well able to manage a citizenship or residency rule, it appears that British Orienteering just can't be bothered as it is too much trouble. Indeed many British Elites have competed successfully abroad and taken advantage of the inclusive nature of other country's policies. Why British Orienteering should choose to be so excluding in comparison is troubling, particularly as this is now my home and has been for 11 years.
I believe that I have served British Orienteering well in the past as a coach and member of BOF committee and had hoped to do so again in the future. I am aware that British Orienteering does not have a plethera of female coaches who are willing to be involved with the junior squad and needs to ensure that they do not alienate those that they do have. I have spoken to other long term residents who have volunteered to an even greater degree than I have and who have made Britain their home for substantially longer than this and who also feel let down by this rule change and alienated from British Orienteering.
Toni
We don't belong here.
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Re: We don't belong here.
You do belong here Toni ~ the sport in our country is really centred around the clubs and regional associations and that's where your contribution is really valued.
Just a shame our Governing body is so out of touch ~ another hasty decision that has not been thought through .
Just a shame our Governing body is so out of touch ~ another hasty decision that has not been thought through .
Last edited by Clive Coles on Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Clive Coles - brown
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Re: We don't belong here.
Toni wrote:While most other countries are well able to manage a citizenship or residency rule, it appears that British Orienteering just can't be bothered as it is too much trouble. Toni
Toni - it is worse than that because we had such a rule and it has now been changed to a stance, which rules out a number of past winners of various British Champs - not sure how or why the rules guru's came up with something that is verging on xenophobic.
I suspect the body of the orienteering kirk is this coutry will be with you, and those like you, who have contributed much to the sport we all love.
Is my memory faulty or did we get all steamed up in the UK when the Scandies took a similar stance on the young Mr Hale.......
A bizare decision in my view
Last edited by madmike on Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
hop fat boy, hop!
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madmike - guru
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Re: We don't belong here.
It seems really odd and you'd probably win if you took it to the European courts!
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Re: We don't belong here.
Another aspect is that "genuine" foreigners, while allowed to run, have no place in the prize-giving ceremony.
I have been fortunate enough to come first in national championship events in France and Ireland over the past couple of years. In each case, I have been invited on to the podium to receive the presents associated with winning the event, while the cup and medals have gone to the first French/Irish person.
In my opinion, this is how it should be. Now that we in Britain are so unfriendly to foreign nationals who run in our events, I shall be embarrassed if I finish on an overseas podium again.
I have been fortunate enough to come first in national championship events in France and Ireland over the past couple of years. In each case, I have been invited on to the podium to receive the presents associated with winning the event, while the cup and medals have gone to the first French/Irish person.
In my opinion, this is how it should be. Now that we in Britain are so unfriendly to foreign nationals who run in our events, I shall be embarrassed if I finish on an overseas podium again.
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Re: We don't belong here.
I am with you on this Toni, especially with regard to the relays.
For me, these are all about the club competition. It seems totally wrong that long standing club members, who may well have contributed much to their club over the years, be excluded from the British Relay Champs, just because they hold a foreign passport. And its not exactly going to help increase the numbers at the relays either.
I hope at some point this rule change can be reversed.
Question for Scott - If a club chooses to enter a team to BRC which is non comp for the purpose of the BRC trophies under this rule, will they still be competitive for the UKRL ?
For me, these are all about the club competition. It seems totally wrong that long standing club members, who may well have contributed much to their club over the years, be excluded from the British Relay Champs, just because they hold a foreign passport. And its not exactly going to help increase the numbers at the relays either.
I hope at some point this rule change can be reversed.
Question for Scott - If a club chooses to enter a team to BRC which is non comp for the purpose of the BRC trophies under this rule, will they still be competitive for the UKRL ?
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mark2 - yellow
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Re: We don't belong here.
Couldn't agree more. Any serious sports team has foreign players.
When I lived in the US I wrote exactly the same letter as you to USOF in 1988. Didn't get anywhere with officialdom, still hasn't, but my clubmates very kindly agreed to forego their competitiveness so that we could run together. And the nice organisers gave us an award anyway. 24 years on and I'm still bitter about it...
I wonder if its illegal under EU law to prevent a club having an EU citizen on its team?
(Struggling to get this on, due to the weight of support for you)
When I lived in the US I wrote exactly the same letter as you to USOF in 1988. Didn't get anywhere with officialdom, still hasn't, but my clubmates very kindly agreed to forego their competitiveness so that we could run together. And the nice organisers gave us an award anyway. 24 years on and I'm still bitter about it...
I wonder if its illegal under EU law to prevent a club having an EU citizen on its team?
(Struggling to get this on, due to the weight of support for you)
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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Re: We don't belong here.
mark2 wrote:Question for Scott - If a club chooses to enter a team to BRC which is non comp for the purpose of the BRC trophies under this rule, will they still be competitive for the UKRL ?
I don't see why not, so long as they were otherwise competitive under the UKRL rules (all members of the same club, not otherwise "cup-tied", and, for British clubs, all BOF members). BRC Rule 1.4.2 refers quite specifically to "eligiblity to be British Relay Championships medallists", and nothing about general competitiveness - after all, teams from foreign clubs are allowed to take part and score UKRL points.
I have a lot of sympathy for long-term residents - I know several clubs whose long-established BRC teams are going to be messed up by this, and several individuals who contribute a lot to orienteering in Britain but who will no longer be competitive for British Champs medals.
But, as I understand it, the major advantage of using British citizenship is that it is fairly easy to prove, at least in the vast majority of cases. If we allow long-term residents to be competitive, it has to be done in a way that doesn't make life too difficult for organisers.
If somebody puts in a protest - "I know that X hasn't lived in the UK for nine of the past twelve months [or whatever]", while X continues to insist that they have met the requirements - it is horribly unfair to place the organiser/jury in the position of having to choose whose word to believe. I believe it was an incident along these lines a couple of years ago that prompted the rule change.
British Orienteering Director | Opinions expressed on here are entirely my own, and do not represent the views of British Orienteering.
"If only you were younger and better..."
"If only you were younger and better..."
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Scott - god
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Re: We don't belong here.
How many high intensity dairy farms are there in Derbyshire ??
Go orienteering in Lithuania......... best in the world:)
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Real Name - Gross
http://www.scottishotours.info
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Gross - god
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Re: We don't belong here.
I find it xenophobic, and feel sure that it breaks EU regs. However why stop at the EU. If it is the BOF champs surely any one that pays a BOF membership should be eligible.
That way none of the controversy Scott mentions could apply. It would be simple and fair. Its not as if Thierry is likely to join BOF so that he can win the British champs. If on the other hand he gets a job, however short term here and BOC happens at that time why would we stand in his way.
After all it would increase the competitiveness and quality of the event and drive up aspirations and standards.
That way none of the controversy Scott mentions could apply. It would be simple and fair. Its not as if Thierry is likely to join BOF so that he can win the British champs. If on the other hand he gets a job, however short term here and BOC happens at that time why would we stand in his way.
After all it would increase the competitiveness and quality of the event and drive up aspirations and standards.
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Re: We don't belong here.
Scott,
What that rule should be is the issue not how easy it is to administer. I appreciate simplicity but I'd love to know how they are going to deal with Northern Ireland in this respect. There will be some individuals born in Britain, with British parents who have chosen to have an Irish passport because it is cheaper and they are entitled to both. So it won't be as simple as asking them to produce a passport, then we'll be asking for citizenship certificates at £86 a pop. So I don't buy the simplcity argument.... it is a volunteer sport and I don't believe clubs will try to cheat the system - they sign a declaration to say their team is eligible and that is that whichever rule is in place.
As for what the rule should be - well in respect of relays I believe it should be residency or citizenship - many countries allow long term residents (such as GG, Stan Hale, Jamie Stevenson.....) to compete for individual titles as well.
OD will be disadvantaged this year in the British Relay League by this rule change. I would expect that clubs would try to put together the best competitive British Relay team first and then put together their best competitive British Relay League team second. It just seems to be a poor rule change
What that rule should be is the issue not how easy it is to administer. I appreciate simplicity but I'd love to know how they are going to deal with Northern Ireland in this respect. There will be some individuals born in Britain, with British parents who have chosen to have an Irish passport because it is cheaper and they are entitled to both. So it won't be as simple as asking them to produce a passport, then we'll be asking for citizenship certificates at £86 a pop. So I don't buy the simplcity argument.... it is a volunteer sport and I don't believe clubs will try to cheat the system - they sign a declaration to say their team is eligible and that is that whichever rule is in place.
As for what the rule should be - well in respect of relays I believe it should be residency or citizenship - many countries allow long term residents (such as GG, Stan Hale, Jamie Stevenson.....) to compete for individual titles as well.
OD will be disadvantaged this year in the British Relay League by this rule change. I would expect that clubs would try to put together the best competitive British Relay team first and then put together their best competitive British Relay League team second. It just seems to be a poor rule change
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Toni - light green
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Re: We don't belong here.
That's an excellent point Eddie and brings the national champs in line with the regional champs where you have to be a member of a club in the region to qualify - not be born in the region and it is so easy to prove (might even drive up BOF membership that's bound to popular!)
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Mrs H - god
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Re: We don't belong here.
The planner of BOC2013 is not eligible for trophies this year.
So his volunteer effort in planning will be "valued" by the powers that be
but he will not be able to win his age trophy this year (assuming he is good enough )
Hopefully this travesty will be rectified very soon
So his volunteer effort in planning will be "valued" by the powers that be
but he will not be able to win his age trophy this year (assuming he is good enough )
Hopefully this travesty will be rectified very soon
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Re: We don't belong here.
Can someone please clarify the rule change being discussed here?
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mappingmum - brown
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Re: We don't belong here.
1.4.1 The event is open to National Members of the British Orienteering Federation and to members of overseas IOF affiliated Federations. Runners not eligible under these criteria shall not be allowed to take part.
1.4.2 Competitors are eligible to be British Championships medallists provided that on the day of the competition they are both a National Member of British Orienteering and a British Citizen. This must be declared at the time of entry to the competition.
this rule , used to say something like "be eligible to become a British citizen" and previous versions had something like "live in country for 6 of the previous 12 months"
1.4.2 Competitors are eligible to be British Championships medallists provided that on the day of the competition they are both a National Member of British Orienteering and a British Citizen. This must be declared at the time of entry to the competition.
this rule , used to say something like "be eligible to become a British citizen" and previous versions had something like "live in country for 6 of the previous 12 months"
hop fat boy, hop!
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