Penrith Urban
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Penrith Urban
Just a note of thanks to the organisers that the male NATO contigent of myself, zuluwarrior, dustytoo and lycraman's son throughly enjoyed ourselves despite the rain that arrived near the end.
Possibly the slowest Orienteer in the NE but maybe above average at 114kg
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AndyC - addict
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Re: Penrith Urban
Agreed, it was a very enjoyable event, despite the wet weather. Good mix of parks, housing estates and town centre, with some good challenging courses.
Very disappointing that so many runners appear to have run through the open gate in the school that was mapped as closed and impassable. How do we stop this from keep happening?!
Very disappointing that so many runners appear to have run through the open gate in the school that was mapped as closed and impassable. How do we stop this from keep happening?!
Martin Ward, SYO (Chair) & SPOOK.
I'm a 1%er. Are you?
I'm a 1%er. Are you?
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Spookster - god
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Re: Penrith Urban
I wasn't there, but having had a similar problem at our last sprint event I think it's near impossible to prevent this. There isn't enough time before the event, especially in the winter for all gates that could be left open that are mapped as impassable because either usually closed or no permission to use them to be checked, not enough spare folk to marshall these gates at the last minute and no-one wants to disqualify half the field for what for most people is just their hobby, although this is what should happen if the gate has a clear black line through it.
I see it as like novices punching through fences, just one of the hazards of urban events. They are fun, but it is easier to either accidentally or deliberately cheat in them than in a forest event.
I see it as like novices punching through fences, just one of the hazards of urban events. They are fun, but it is easier to either accidentally or deliberately cheat in them than in a forest event.
- frog
Re: Penrith Urban
What I believe you don't do is void the leg and keep everybody who went through the gate in the results, especially when it should be very clear from the splits who went through and who went round. Disqualifications is what it will take to stop it, using the wording suggested by Mrs H if necessary. The map was very clear.
I partially disagree with frog here: when the locked gates are so critical to the leg, as they were here, then they need checking at the same time as hanging controls; obviously can't check everything, but key pinch points do need identifying beforehand. They are usually in places like this - schools, estates etc. The whole point to this leg, for instance, was that this and perhaps one or two others were locked, so they are ones that need checking. Not a lot the organisers can do if the gates are locked/unlocked after that.
The decision is a pity, as otherwise the race was excellent, making much better use of the area than anticipated from looking at the blank map. One of the best planned courses I've run this year which I hugely enjoyed as I ran round, which is, for me, the most important part of the race.
I partially disagree with frog here: when the locked gates are so critical to the leg, as they were here, then they need checking at the same time as hanging controls; obviously can't check everything, but key pinch points do need identifying beforehand. They are usually in places like this - schools, estates etc. The whole point to this leg, for instance, was that this and perhaps one or two others were locked, so they are ones that need checking. Not a lot the organisers can do if the gates are locked/unlocked after that.
The decision is a pity, as otherwise the race was excellent, making much better use of the area than anticipated from looking at the blank map. One of the best planned courses I've run this year which I hugely enjoyed as I ran round, which is, for me, the most important part of the race.
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awk - god
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Re: Penrith Urban
If the gate is where I think it is ; my map has a little pink mark (like a misprinted crossing point) next to it - didn't see that while competing and didn't use it but others may have I suppose. However I suspect that there may be another passageway that was stewarded when I went past which is the real issue?
Possibly the slowest Orienteer in the NE but maybe above average at 114kg
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AndyC - addict
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Re: Penrith Urban
awk wrote: Disqualifications is what it will take to stop it, using the wording suggested by Mrs H if necessary.
Oh dear I can't remember what I said - was it good?
For the sake of those of us organising/planning a nopesport league event next year - could someone post a jpeg of the offending leg as soon as practical. Thanks
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Mrs H - god
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Re: Penrith Urban
I've posted a note from the controller on the BL website http://www.borderliners.btck.co.uk/
- usuallylast
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Re: Penrith Urban
There are a lot of good, concidered comments here - makes a nice change! (is this the "new" Nopesport Forum regime kicking in? - I actually had to stop at control 128 (18 on Women Open/M40+) to take a REALLY good look with my magnifier to make sure there was no other option than to back track the way I had come in to the control to get to 127 (control no.19). It would be a real shame to void all the courses, and, while I can see that disqualification of competitors "assumed" to have taken the (illegal) short-cut would be an option, how do you actually KNOW that quick splits equals wrong-doing? Surely the best option (although maybe not the preferred option) would be to void the leg? I do not condone intentional cheating, but it is quite easy, especially in urban races, to unintentionally takes routes/short cuts that are actually not meant to be taken.
- haloite
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Re: Penrith Urban
One thing I do remember saying was this
naming and shaming may be appropriate for cheats - but I'm not sure it's appropriate for the "honest" mistake which results in an unfair advantage - perhaps a quiet word resulting in a "withdrawn" instead of DSQ in the results.
This would make it clear in the results that the transgressor had DSQ themselves - an honourable move - as opposed to being disqualified for any other reason. This would remove the onerous job of actually doing the naming and shaming as such and people who were genuinely DSQ for missing out a control would be obvious from the splits and should be put in the results as MP.
Some folk might be reluctant to owning up to their mistakes if they fear it looks like they were caught cheating in the results - this would be an elegant way to mark the difference and may result in more people owning up to honest mistakes.
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Mrs H - god
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Re: Penrith Urban
Results for the unaffected courses E and F (classes MJ, WJ, YM, YW) are now available on the BL website.
- usuallylast
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Re: Penrith Urban
I'll have a trawl and see if I can find it, but you used a form of words Mrs H that replaced "Disqualified" (implying deliberate cheating) with a phrase that indicated that it was just as likely to be an inadvertant transgression (but from which one unknowingly gained an unfair advantage).
Haloite: I've obviously not seen all the splits, and maybe wrong, but I think this is one instance where the difference between going round (it took me around two and a half minutes) and going through the gap (barely more than a minute, maybe less) would be so obvious as to be pretty undisputable. (BTW it was good to see you backtracking as we passed, as it confirmed to me that the route I'd worked out did make sense!).
Anyway, the controller is rethinking the problem through (not a job I envy), so will wait and see what comes out.
Haloite: I've obviously not seen all the splits, and maybe wrong, but I think this is one instance where the difference between going round (it took me around two and a half minutes) and going through the gap (barely more than a minute, maybe less) would be so obvious as to be pretty undisputable. (BTW it was good to see you backtracking as we passed, as it confirmed to me that the route I'd worked out did make sense!).
Anyway, the controller is rethinking the problem through (not a job I envy), so will wait and see what comes out.
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awk - god
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Re: Penrith Urban
For those who did not get to Penrith yesterday, I have put a image onto
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/cazmoon/penrith.jpg
of the leg in debate. This is from the W40 class and it is from Control 18 (128) to Control 19 (127) that is causing the issue.
It is a clear black, uncrossable line to me, so why people chanced their luck and investigated, I do not know. I certainly went the long way, so 2 to 3 mins for the leg rather than the <1min for those who got through. When I got to 19, there was a marshal over by the opening.
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/cazmoon/penrith.jpg
of the leg in debate. This is from the W40 class and it is from Control 18 (128) to Control 19 (127) that is causing the issue.
It is a clear black, uncrossable line to me, so why people chanced their luck and investigated, I do not know. I certainly went the long way, so 2 to 3 mins for the leg rather than the <1min for those who got through. When I got to 19, there was a marshal over by the opening.
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Caz - off string
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Re: Penrith Urban
awk wrote:I'll have a trawl and see if I can find it, but you used a form of words Mrs H that replaced "Disqualified" (implying deliberate cheating) with a phrase that indicated that it was just as likely to be an inadvertant transgression (but from which one unknowingly gained an unfair advantage).
I think it must have been your discussion around using 'withdrawn' that I remembered, as I can't find anything else (and have tracked back as far asthe Eden event where you mentioned that idea). Not quite what I meant, but something along those lines is I feel needed.
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awk - god
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Re: Penrith Urban
Caz wrote:For those who did not get to Penrith yesterday, I have put a image onto
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/cazmoon/penrith.jpg
of the leg in debate. This is from the W40 class and it is from Control 18 (128) to Control 19 (127) that is causing the issue.
It is a clear black, uncrossable line to me, so why people chanced their luck and investigated, I do not know. I certainly went the long way, so 2 to 3 mins for the leg rather than the <1min for those who got through. When I got to 19, there was a marshal over by the opening.
The pink mark on my map relates to a gate by the other control in the area on the distinctive tree South of 128 so it isn't an excuse to use the passage even if it was on anyone's map. I didn't even think to check if there was a route through as the map is very clear with continuous obstacles
edited to reflect my inability to tell N from S Doh!
Last edited by AndyC on Sun Nov 27, 2011 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Possibly the slowest Orienteer in the NE but maybe above average at 114kg
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AndyC - addict
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Re: Penrith Urban
Is it the NW edge of the canopy which is in question, very close to the 19 control circle ?
If so, I suggest cutting the control circle here would have made the uncrossable line much easier to see. I know it is very difficult to spot all such circumstances when planning, and this is intended as constructive suggestion for future reference not criticism.
(I was not at the event).
If so, I suggest cutting the control circle here would have made the uncrossable line much easier to see. I know it is very difficult to spot all such circumstances when planning, and this is intended as constructive suggestion for future reference not criticism.
(I was not at the event).
curro ergo sum
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