2012 Urban Speculation

[LostAgain]

I've been wondering about a different (even less fair?) simple system.

Double points for the Final race.
When you look at the maths, for two people who are quite close the final race doesn't have such a big effect on relative position: for competitiveness in the competition as a whole the last race is everything, but for determining who beats who it only has double the importance of the other 8 races.

Unless of course someone is unable to make the final, could be convincingly winning all year and miss the final and .....

Depends on whether you are trying to have a series of events around the country allowing as many as possible to participate or aiming to make create a super-event.

[Homer]

Interestingly the NWOA are using the National Rankings for the basis of the new 2011 NWOL. See here:
http://www.lakes-o.com/nwleague2011.htm
As yet there is nothing to address the problem with U16's not getting ranking points. In fact first year 16's have been totally ignored. If I was one of them, I'd be pretty turned off the whole league by now.

I personally prefer a system along the Nopesport or Masters Cup one, as it will produce different results to the Rankings. If you want to see who the top ranked M40 in the NW is, just look at the National Rankings and apply the appropriate filter.

I also like Graeme's idea of extra points for the League Final. Not sure about double though. It would mean another big autumn race (a bit like the C/S Cup Final) where there should be some serious competition.

[Sloop]

How about a completely different approach ?

In team sports, leagues tend to mean total points after everybody has played everybody else. You don't get teams not appearing very often and disrupting the results.

We could make orienteering leagues more like this if the scoring discarded performances of people who haven't done enough events to qualify. So, for the Nopesport League, say, anyone with less than 6 performances would be removed from the results of all races before the point scoring is applied.

In this way, the winner who be the most consistently in front of those who have made the effort to take part over the season.

[Spookster]

I like the idea of making the final race of a series somewhat more significant, and trying to get a higher level of entry. This year's UK Cup had a Final where the score in that race was automatically included (i.e. it was best 8 scores plus your score in the Final). Unfortunately it didn't bring out the crowds - in fact the Pickering Final was the lowest attended of the series.

Another factor to consider in this scoring system is whether 50% of the races in the series is the right number to count as scores. It's been pointed out already that only 4 runners will have the six counting scores in the 2011 NUL MVet class, which is disappointing. It's even worse in Mens Open, where only two runners have 5 scores so far, and neither of them are entered for the last race at Penrith.

Perhaps a National series needs fewer than 50% of the races to be included if the trend is towards people travelling less? How about one third of the races plus a final race that has scores starting at 150 rather than 100?

[AndyC]

I've been wondering about the lack of mention of the Penrith Race on Saturday -especially as I make my debut in the league there (don't worry graeme I don't expect to overtake you).
Given the geographical location right by the M6 I'd have expected more interest but obviously not...
BTB (and no plug because I'm not involved) the CLOK event at Cod Beck (just off the A19) is an alternative Sunday event for weekenders - an area I've had very mixed experiences at!

[Homer]

How about one third of the races plus a final race that has scores starting at 150 rather than 100?

That sounds about right to me.

It's been pointed out already that only 4 runners will have the six counting scores in the 2011 NUL MVet class, which is disappointing. It's even worse in Mens Open, where only two runners have 5 scores so far, and neither of them are entered for the last race at Penrith.

And Junior Men where no one will get the full 6 to count either. This hasn't been helped by various fixture clashes (it's the 16's w/e in the Lakes this weekend clashing with Penrith).

With so many competitions going on, there are bound to be fixture clashes, but I've found that it's been impossible to target more than one competition. Fewer races to count seems the only way to reduce this problem.

[LostAgain]

If you are going to have a final (compulsory) then make it the JK Sprint, and give bonus points.
This would only require a rebasing of the year to a "financial" rather than calendar.

[Jayne]

Following on the point from the JK Sprint I think I would argue that sprints tend be a different kind of race from the City Urban Races that the Nopesport League (and Southern...) tends to include. Nothing against them per se (the Leeds Uni Sprint was one of my favourites this year) but I'm not sure they have place in an urban league (feel free to disagree). On the other hand, I think that some of the better urban races will generally have an element of sprint in them.

[awk]

I'm not sure they have place in an urban league (feel free to disagree).

I will! Urban racing isn't defined by the distance - it's good to have variety, and an urban sprint is just as urban as a longer race. One of the joys of the UK Masters is just that variety - making it one of the most interesting competitions I've competed in over recent years. TBH, if anything, I don't think there's enough variety in the NUL.

[brooner]

I'm not sure they have place in an urban league (feel free to disagree).

I will! Urban racing isn't defined by the distance - it's good to have variety, and an urban sprint is just as urban as a longer race. One of the joys of the UK Masters is just that variety - making it one of the most interesting competitions I've competed in over recent years. TBH, if anything, I don't think there's enough variety in the NUL.

That is down to clubs/events rather than the league - we're happy for chasing sprints and anything else to be in the league as long as it fits with the classes, ultimately they need to be urban. Similarly, would probably include sprints, but then you get people moaning about travelling for 20 minutes, and reduced entry numbers.

I've been wondering about the lack of mention of the Penrith Race on Saturday -especially as I make my debut in the league there (don't worry graeme I don't expect to overtake you).
Given the geographical location right by the M6 I'd have expected more interest but obviously not...
BTB (and no plug because I'm not involved) the CLOK event at Cod Beck (just off the A19) is an alternative Sunday event for weekenders - an area I've had very mixed experiences at!

Maybe not mentioned because this is a thread about 2012? Sure folk will discuss it afterwards.

WRT next year's events, likely to be 6/14 races, so should hopefully get more people getting the full set. Trying to ensure a decent spread across the country & year too.

[IanD]

Double points for the Final race.

I would be opposed to this. Unfair on anyone who happens to be injured for the final race. Unfair on anyone who cannot make it.

As it happens, I can't make the final race myself this year, due to a clash with one of the tiny number of ranking trail-O events. So if you do decide to have a higher-scoring final, you'd better make sure that it is the only major event in the country on it's day. Unlikely given the low priority of the Nopesport league amongst the (non-urban) fixture-setters.

[AndyC]

.

I've been wondering about the lack of mention of the Penrith Race on Saturday -especially as I make my debut in the league there (don't worry graeme I don't expect to overtake you).
Given the geographical location right by the M6 I'd have expected more interest but obviously not...
BTB (and no plug because I'm not involved) the CLOK event at Cod Beck (just off the A19) is an alternative Sunday event for weekenders - an area I've had very mixed experiences at!

Maybe not mentioned because this is a thread about 2012? Sure folk will discuss it afterwards.

I was talking in general not about this specific thread - there has been no mention on Nopesport apart from this thread I think

[LostAgain]

Double points for the Final race.

So if you do decide to have a higher-scoring final, you'd better make sure that it is the only major event in the country on it's day. Unlikely given the low priority of the Nopesport league amongst the (non-urban) fixture-setters.

Unless you made it the JK Sprint.

[Spookster]

Unless you made it the JK Sprint.

With the present NUL scoring format, you couldn't use the JK Sprint for the same reason that you can no longer include London. They're just too big.

[Mrs H]

BUT the nope cartel are keen to have the league events tagged onto other events for Extra Value Orienteering - so presumably if you chose a suitably big event to tag the final on to then there wouldn't be much competition that weekend any way. i guess the problem is finding a suitably big event towards the end of the calendar year. Any suggestions? CompassSport Cup?
Yes folks that's what I said - CompassSport Cup