Contribution

[awk]

Oh, awk, don't patronise

So much for my efforts at being constructive.

[obody]

Thanks guys, you've ably demonstrated my point. My partner got me into orienteering quite recently, and sadly with a background in all sorts of other sports as a beginner I've never been made to feel so unwelcome. Not intentionally maybe, but directed to run the kids courses, turning up at an event and not having anyone to speak to because there's just a whole bunch of people sat in their cars, being made to feel inferior for not having been in the sport for years etc etc.

The general impression this beginner gets is that the sport is cliquey and unwelcoming - tho of course this isn't a valid viewpoint because I can't relate the whole history of MADO. I quite enjoy it as a sport tho, and would put my hand up to organise, if it weren't for the criticism meted out to volunteers if things aren't 'just so'... often apparently if someone disagrees wih their approach, rather than actually knows any of the people or circumstances involved.

[Familytaxi driver]

The general impression this beginner gets is that the sport is cliquey and unwelcoming - tho of course this isn't a valid viewpoint because I can't relate the whole history of MADO. I quite enjoy it as a sport tho, and would put my hand up to organise, if it weren't for the criticism meted out to volunteers if things aren't 'just so'... often apparently if someone disagrees wih their approach, rather than actually knows any of the people or circumstances involved.

I have to agree with obody.
I've only been orienteering for about four years well short of the time that it feels like you have to have orienteered before you can state an opinion and have it heard - or even know anyone to state that opinion to.
Probably worse as I'm not one to put myself forward and am thin skinned if I hear negative comments etc.

Rant over I'm off to get out and enjoy this November day.

[Mrs H]

The general impression this beginner gets is that the sport is cliquey and unwelcoming - tho of course this isn't a valid viewpoint because I can't relate the whole history of MADO.

Which is a shame because you won't then be able to appreciate the irony of that statement. MADO was obviously exactly what you needed as it was built on the principle of a friendly and welcoming set up . You seem to have knowledge of the West Mids - where are you based that you are getting such a poor experience?

I'm off out now to enjoy orienteering on this November day.

[awk]

Thanks guys, you've ably demonstrated my point. My partner got me into orienteering quite recently, and sadly with a background in all sorts of other sports as a beginner I've never been made to feel so unwelcome. Not intentionally maybe, but directed to run the kids courses, turning up at an event and not having anyone to speak to because there's just a whole bunch of people sat in their cars, being made to feel inferior for not having been in the sport for years etc etc.

That's really unfortunate, and reflects on the events you have been to: round here you would have been directed to adult beginner's courses, and there would have been a point for you to go to meet club members. A lot of clubs also have club evenings etc etc.

However, and I realise I'm in danger of being accused of being patronising again but hope I'm not, if I was new to a sport and/or a forum, I wouldn't go jumping in doing exactly what I'm criticising people of doing, i.e. uninformed criticism of individuals. It doesn't matter what forum one went on, it would not be welcomed with open arms, and would in many receive something far stronger than the mild rebuke here.

I do agree there is criticism here, and I also agree that some of it would have been better left unsaid. I will hold my hand up and accept that in the past I've been guilty of the latter, but hope that I've acknowledged that and apologised when it's happened. I have to say that, personally, when there's been criticism of events I've been involved in, I've found it constructive and useful (and all too accurate!).

But equally there is (far more) praise, which is often overlooked (inevitably - it's like word of mouth reputations: it just takes one to undo all the good work). As I see it, there is a real passion for the sport here and a desire for it to be as good an experience as possible. Ironically, much of the criticism is about issues you are concerned with, e.g. how welcoming/spectator friendly events are. To that end, I think your comments about your experiences are invaluable, and need repeating loud and long!

I must dash though - I'm off to one of our Saturday events, which are partly aimed at beginners (adults and children). Taking your comments on board, I will try not to hide in the car.

[AndyC]

You seem to have knowledge of the West Mids - where are you based that you are getting such a poor experience?

I'm off out now to enjoy orienteering on this November day.

If it is in the West Midlands i'm surprised as I've been made most welcome by two of the clubs there -mostly midweek (perhaps that is relevant as things are much more relaxed then). Maybe the fact that I am a distinctive person (and very outgoing in nature) may be relevant as people a) notice me the first time and b) notice that I've been around for a few events and make the effort to speak to me? I have noticed some clubs have people tasked with greeting new people which is a positive step ( I've also been pressed into that task while hanging around before or after my run).
The suggestion of newcomers being sent on the "kiddies courses" is difficult we have the conflict of discouraging someone because it is too easy or because they embarass themseves by comprehensively getting lost and having to be found by a search party
In the warmer/dryer weather I tend to rapidly change the important parts of my kit (usually shirt and socks) to be comfortable and then go and socialise.
I do also make a point of thanking the organisers if I can - even when I've felt it important to complain about something as feedback is important if we are to improve things -again maybe you get back what you put in?

[Paul Frost]

I can't speak for other clubs, as I've only belonged to 2 in the 10 years I've been orienteering.

But at EckO we always have at least one person in a hi-vis vest with "Here to help" on the back, and I'm told other clubs have similar.
Unfortunately sitting around in cars is common, as the weather (or in our case, midges) is often not conducive to standing around outside, especially if you cold & wet from a run.
That's a by product of us not having clubhouses but being out in the wild.
You can't make a group of people sociable, they either are, or their not. EckO has a fantastic social atmosphere and a real feeling of belonging, but I can't give you a list of things to do and you'll have the same. It's all down to the individuals involved.

Adults running junior courses is a problem, if a fit adult turns up, what do you give them?
Most local event TD5 courses are going to be less than 7km, so providing a 7km TD3/orange is likely to be impossible.
EckO tends to encourage them to go out on a yellow as a warm-up and to get used to reading a map whilst running and then talk to them about their experience of that and then send them out again on orange or light green.
But we don't call yellow/orange courses children's courses, we can them beginner.

The other thing to realise about NopeSport (and probably most forums), is that the tend to be populated by people that are passionate about the subject. They have opinions, and if they didn't why would they be posting?

Most clubs, organisations and governments are run by, or voted in by, a tiny portion of their members. Orienteering is no different, if more "normal" people came on to Nope and participated the balance would shift. But at the moment a small number of passionate orienteers are doing all the driving of the bus, so they get to choose where the bus goes.

[Gross]

small number of passionate orienteers are doing all the driving of the bus, so they get to choose where the bus goes.

And the wheels on that bus go round & round all day long

[AndyC]

small number of passionate orienteers are doing all the driving of the bus, so they get to choose where the bus goes.

And the wheels on that bus go round & round all day long

I didn't say that Paul did! (I don't disagree however)

[SeanC]

My wife hasn't gone orienteering since her first event when she got told quite sternly she shouldn't do light green at her first event. I stepped in and said I would be helping her to the first control, but the damage was done. 37 year old adults with responsible jobs and years of outdoor/navigation type skills don't want to be made to feel irresponsible for asking to jog/walk a few kilometers around a wood in north east London.

Obody - IMHO part of the problem is that the colour coded event is a difficult event to organise and organisers/helpers get stressed (assuming you are referring to colour coded events). 11am with a queue of impatient orienteers can be stressful when you are in a windy field with loads of bits of paper, equipment and not all of it can be found etc. Then a few beginners turn up asking questions and behaving unpredictably - the stress goes up further and the customer service training gets ditched. Unfortunately the format discourages further social interaction so the stressed person at registration is what is remembered.

Mrs. H's MADO series is a great example of how to overcome these difficulties and turn colour coded events into something more welcoming for everyone. It used to be on the success stories section of the bof website http://www.britishorienteering.org.uk/p ... ss_stories but has disappeared with some others following a website upgrade. Mrs. H - if you send me an old PDF or something I will lobby to get it put back.

At the risk of sounding like a cracked record, other formats don't have these problems. Not everyone can work a crowd, but at our last Kent Night Cup event (mass start score) the organiser explained all the points for experienced and new orienteers, then had us singing happy birthday for Chris Hooker's 50th birthday. With a finish next to the food/bar, and everyone chatting together no-one could describe it as unwelcoming.

[awk]

Obody - IMHO part of the problem is that the colour coded event is a difficult event to organise and organisers/helpers get stressed (assuming you are referring to colour coded events). 11am with a queue of impatient orienteers can be stressful when you are in a windy field with loads of bits of paper, equipment and not all of it can be found etc. Then a few beginners turn up asking questions and behaving unpredictably - the stress goes up further and the customer service training gets ditched. Unfortunately the format discourages further social interaction so the stressed person at registration is what is remembered.

Without trying to teach anybody here to suck eggs, that is easily dealt with if the event has an information point, which is surely a basic essential (and staffed by people who know better than to tell someone that they must not do light green!). I hesitate to criticise, but any colour coded event that doesn't......

Which takes me back to the points obody raises about unfriendliness here. Pretty much every other board I subscribe to has a Welcome Forum (or similar name) specifically put aside for newcomers to introduce themselves, and for current subscribers to welcome them. That would, I suggest, help make a difference here. On some, if anybody posts to another forum first, they are still directed to the welcome forum specifically to make sure that they make themselves known (a bit like the days when one needed to be 'introduced' first?!)

[EddieH]

Sean's wife's experience boggles the mind. Not least because in North London it is scarcely credible that there is any TD 5 terrain and therefore according to the guidelines there can be no difference in technical difficulty between light green and brown etc.

[Mrs H]

Mrs. H's MADO series is a great example of how to overcome these difficulties and turn colour coded events into something more welcoming for everyone. It used to be on the success stories section of the bof website http://www.britishorienteering.org.uk/p ... ss_stories but has disappeared with some others following a website upgrade. Mrs. H - if you send me an old PDF or something I will lobby to get it put back.

Ha ha ha really? Well we mustn't stand in the way of progress and it doesn't fit their brief does it ?

[IanD]

37 year old adults with responsible jobs and years of outdoor/navigation type skills don't want to be made to feel irresponsible for asking to jog/walk a few kilometers around a wood in north east London.

I came into orienteering from a background of long-distance challenge walks. The first orienteering course I ever did was a Red, the second was a Brown, which became my norm at colour-coded events. I also did Chocolate (night Brown) at my first night event.

I was aware that some regular orienteers seemed a little worried that I was regularly taking 2-3 hours, but I never took any notice; as far as I was concerned, these were short events. (I used to opt for early starts so I was always back before course-closing).

However, I am fairly thick-skinned and insensitive, perhaps another potential recruit might have been put off.

[andypat]

However, I am fairly thick-skinned and insensitive

Ian you arent by any chance in charge of orienteering in the West Midlands now?