4th CIty of London Race
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Re: 4th CIty of London Race
Its a reasonable suggestion but the main problem with using RG as a checking tool is that its not secure. Anyone could put a route on for you and get you DQ'd (if they wanted).
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- andypat
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Re: 4th CIty of London Race
The trouble with a gate marked as uncrossable that is occasionally open is that it is so very different fron other uncrossable features. An uncrossable fence or wall, no matter how flimsy a barrier they are, is still a physical presence, and therefore instantly related to the map. An uncrossable gateway firstly has no specific symbol, so it will be shown as an uncrossable boundary (as it was at control 209). But in that case, an opening, even if meant to be uncrossable is not, of itself, instantly related to the map. As someone said in a previous post, if you are not 100% sure of where you are, then mistakes can happen. If you do know exactly where you are, the lack of a physical barrier means you have to check.
I did wonder if for gateways that are meant to be uncrossable, a short purple line, rather than the block uncrossable boundary line might better emphasise the uncrossability, rather than the boundary.
I did wonder if for gateways that are meant to be uncrossable, a short purple line, rather than the block uncrossable boundary line might better emphasise the uncrossability, rather than the boundary.
- dustytoo
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Re: 4th CIty of London Race
Apart from mrking on the map -to which I have no objection-surely the better answer is something on the gate- a bit of black and yellow tape perhaps (yes I know there is a risk of it being removed)to give the competitor an obvious warning
Possibly the slowest Orienteer in the NE but maybe above average at 114kg
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AndyC - addict
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Re: 4th CIty of London Race
dustytoo wrote:The trouble with a gate marked as uncrossable that is occasionally open is that it is so very different fron other uncrossable features. An uncrossable fence or wall, no matter how flimsy a barrier they are, is still a physical presence, and therefore instantly related to the map. An uncrossable gateway firstly has no specific symbol, so it will be shown as an uncrossable boundary (as it was at control 209). But in that case, an opening, even if meant to be uncrossable is not, of itself, instantly related to the map. As someone said in a previous post, if you are not 100% sure of where you are, then mistakes can happen. If you do know exactly where you are, the lack of a physical barrier means you have to check.
It didn't happen in London (so far as I know), but at other urban events I've seen situations when there is no feature at all (or perhaps just a paving edge) between "in bounds" and "out of bounds"; an example is SE of control 14 (114) on the Men's Vets course at the recent Guildford event, where the roadway NE of the control going from NW to SE continues between the two out-of-bounds buildings. In cases like this it's very easy to go out of bounds without realising it. The only solution I can see is to map such roads or tracks under the OOB screen, although even this would be easy to miss in competition.
- roadrunner
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Re: 4th CIty of London Race
I've found some excellent headcam footage from the weekend's race: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrQ7aIAKfdk
Particularly from 3:25 onwards when the runner goes inside the barbican theatre and runs around for a bit until using a lift to get back above ground.
I wasn't there but pretty sure it's not a valid route on the map!
If you're going to disqualify from RG, how about from headcam footage
Particularly from 3:25 onwards when the runner goes inside the barbican theatre and runs around for a bit until using a lift to get back above ground.
I wasn't there but pretty sure it's not a valid route on the map!
If you're going to disqualify from RG, how about from headcam footage
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Ant Jones - off string
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Re: 4th CIty of London Race
Brilliant headcam footage, particularly when you are looking at Routegadget, too.
To give credit to Sousa1281, he seems to have drawn his route from 26 to 27 through the theatre and up the lift quite accurately on Routegadget, too! (And from Youtube, you can hear that he did ask permission of the man at the theatre reception desk "can I go up there?", which got a "yes" response!)
To give credit to Sousa1281, he seems to have drawn his route from 26 to 27 through the theatre and up the lift quite accurately on Routegadget, too! (And from Youtube, you can hear that he did ask permission of the man at the theatre reception desk "can I go up there?", which got a "yes" response!)
- OCM45
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Re: 4th CIty of London Race
One of the key skills required to be a top orienteer is to get the balance right between speed and care. If you go fast and don’t read all the detail on the map then you are at higher risk of making mistakes. But reading all the detail on the map slows you down.
If this skill is to be valid in urban races too, then it must be possible to run fast without having read the map in detail. If you need to turn left, right left, left on roads, you don’t need to count the alleys and you can ignore the trees and bridges. Sometimes it doesn’t work: your chosen route turns out to have a flower bed across it (Sussex uni) or a route that seemed OK at a glance was actually a dead-end. You curse under your breath and turn round and choose the correct route.
My route to 209 looked straightforward; get out of Finsbury Circus, left, right, left, right to control. On turning right there was a gateway with the side gate open. I went through but was a little puzzled so as I was running on, checked my map to realise that the boundary of the grey canopy showed an impassable wall. (“An impassable wall or retaining wall is a wall, which fulfil the function of an enclosure or solid barrier. It shall not be crossed, due to forbidden access or because it may constitute a danger to the competitor due to its height.”) I was unhappy, but my map-reading probably cost me about the same number of seconds as the extra 30m required for the other route, so just continued.
My view is that an impassible barrier must actually exist for it to be against the rules to cross it. If we are must carefully navigate round things that don’t exist (like some of the road works on the City Race map too), then urban orienteering is going to be like playing the final at Wimbledon without a net.
It seems that we need to ask rules group to review a number of issues about impassible barriers and out of bounds.
1 What does “impassible” mean? Can you reach over or through?
2 What if a barrier doesn’t exist?
3 How do you get a fair competition when the edge of an OOB area has no physical boundary to match the map?
If this skill is to be valid in urban races too, then it must be possible to run fast without having read the map in detail. If you need to turn left, right left, left on roads, you don’t need to count the alleys and you can ignore the trees and bridges. Sometimes it doesn’t work: your chosen route turns out to have a flower bed across it (Sussex uni) or a route that seemed OK at a glance was actually a dead-end. You curse under your breath and turn round and choose the correct route.
My route to 209 looked straightforward; get out of Finsbury Circus, left, right, left, right to control. On turning right there was a gateway with the side gate open. I went through but was a little puzzled so as I was running on, checked my map to realise that the boundary of the grey canopy showed an impassable wall. (“An impassable wall or retaining wall is a wall, which fulfil the function of an enclosure or solid barrier. It shall not be crossed, due to forbidden access or because it may constitute a danger to the competitor due to its height.”) I was unhappy, but my map-reading probably cost me about the same number of seconds as the extra 30m required for the other route, so just continued.
My view is that an impassible barrier must actually exist for it to be against the rules to cross it. If we are must carefully navigate round things that don’t exist (like some of the road works on the City Race map too), then urban orienteering is going to be like playing the final at Wimbledon without a net.
It seems that we need to ask rules group to review a number of issues about impassible barriers and out of bounds.
1 What does “impassible” mean? Can you reach over or through?
2 What if a barrier doesn’t exist?
3 How do you get a fair competition when the edge of an OOB area has no physical boundary to match the map?
- PG
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Re: 4th CIty of London Race
Peter,
you make some good points, which I agree with but I think your comment on the works, which move constantly as mentioned in the final details, are a tad unfair on those who put on the Event. At some stage you have to send off the maps for printing: Indeed one of my 7 laws of urban orienteering was this:
Expectation: Accept that not everything is always going to be perfectly fair. Parked cars can conceal routes (and controls); traffic and pedestrians can block your way; unmapped cranes can block your carefully chosen route. Don't get upset about it, just man-up and get on with the execution of your race – stay mentally strong.
D'accordo with the rest of your post.
you make some good points, which I agree with but I think your comment on the works, which move constantly as mentioned in the final details, are a tad unfair on those who put on the Event. At some stage you have to send off the maps for printing: Indeed one of my 7 laws of urban orienteering was this:
Expectation: Accept that not everything is always going to be perfectly fair. Parked cars can conceal routes (and controls); traffic and pedestrians can block your way; unmapped cranes can block your carefully chosen route. Don't get upset about it, just man-up and get on with the execution of your race – stay mentally strong.
D'accordo with the rest of your post.
hop fat boy, hop!
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madmike - guru
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Re: 4th CIty of London Race
Mike
I suspect PG wasnt having a go at the planner in his comment about roadworks on the map which had disappeared on the ground. More so the comments on here which (in some cases) suggest runners felt the need to avoid the red shaded area which was previously occupied by now non-existent works. This is plainly daft and i hope noone really thinks they would be DQ'd for running across a newly clear area, any more than it would be acceptable to traverse a set of roadworks which had sprung up post printing!
I also agree with the gist of the rest of his post. If unexpected things crop up mid race that arent necessarily the fault of either the planner or the competitor then we shouldnt set out to blame either. C'est la vie and get on with it.
Incidentally I thought the planner at London did a good job of locating the controls on uncrossable fences far enough away from potential reach through issues on the M40 course at any rate. On this issue good planning foresight prevents controversy.
I suspect PG wasnt having a go at the planner in his comment about roadworks on the map which had disappeared on the ground. More so the comments on here which (in some cases) suggest runners felt the need to avoid the red shaded area which was previously occupied by now non-existent works. This is plainly daft and i hope noone really thinks they would be DQ'd for running across a newly clear area, any more than it would be acceptable to traverse a set of roadworks which had sprung up post printing!
I also agree with the gist of the rest of his post. If unexpected things crop up mid race that arent necessarily the fault of either the planner or the competitor then we shouldnt set out to blame either. C'est la vie and get on with it.
Incidentally I thought the planner at London did a good job of locating the controls on uncrossable fences far enough away from potential reach through issues on the M40 course at any rate. On this issue good planning foresight prevents controversy.
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Re: 4th CIty of London Race
andypat wrote:Mike
I suspect PG wasnt having a go at the planner in his comment about roadworks on the map which had disappeared on the ground. More so the comments on here which (in some cases) suggest runners felt the need to avoid the red shaded area which was previously occupied by now non-existent works.
Correct. I really enjoyed the event and thought the map was great. I went back to the map extract in the final details several times before the event, but still missed the best route to number 21 on course 9 (and thus the ultimate optimum choice of being able to run down the down-escalator). However that was my fault, not the mapper's. Urban terrain changes much faster than traditional terrain, especially if trying to map road works and when gates might or might not be open. I think the rules need to recognise this and accept that if the terrain does not match the map, competitors should not be penalised for transgressing. But when the terrain does match the map then impassible should still mean that.
- PG
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Re: 4th CIty of London Race
Peter,
roger on that - please accept my apology for my wrong interpretation of your comments.
Mike
roger on that - please accept my apology for my wrong interpretation of your comments.
Mike
hop fat boy, hop!
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madmike - guru
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Re: 4th CIty of London Race
PG wrote: I think the rules need to recognise this and accept that if the terrain does not match the map, competitors should not be penalised for transgressing. But when the terrain does match the map then impassible should still mean that.
Yes that is a common sense approach which I would also support.
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Mrs H - god
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Re: 4th CIty of London Race
I've put down some of my thoughts here: http://blog.oobrien.com/2011/09/15/the-fourth-city-of-london-race/
Stop talking, start running.
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Angry Haggis - blue
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Re: 4th CIty of London Race
On the construction works question ...
It seems to me to be just as daft to try to run round works that aren't there any more as it would be to try to run through works that had arrived since the map was printed.
On the gates question ...
It seems unlikely to me that all gates could be taped, and I don't see what any such tape would mean, even if it remained in place. Policing everything would be waste of volunteer resource. Mapping has to be defensive, as at mapping time you can't know future open-ness, so you have to assume the worst.
The best approach to this issue is to plan around it. ie. any gate that may or may not be open (and presumably that can potentially change during a race, in either direction) shouldn't be on the optimal route for any leg. Then it really doesn't matter.
It seems to me to be just as daft to try to run round works that aren't there any more as it would be to try to run through works that had arrived since the map was printed.
On the gates question ...
It seems unlikely to me that all gates could be taped, and I don't see what any such tape would mean, even if it remained in place. Policing everything would be waste of volunteer resource. Mapping has to be defensive, as at mapping time you can't know future open-ness, so you have to assume the worst.
The best approach to this issue is to plan around it. ie. any gate that may or may not be open (and presumably that can potentially change during a race, in either direction) shouldn't be on the optimal route for any leg. Then it really doesn't matter.
- Sloop
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Re: 4th CIty of London Race
Oh and I forgot to say ... the whole event was totally brilliant ... blasting round the assorted tourist venues, then dipping into the Barbican, out again, and back in for the killer leg and scamper to the finish. All in decent weather and reasonably traffic-free, and with massed ranks of foreigners making for a real big-event atmosphere.
You guys have done a great job over the years. Long may it continue.
You guys have done a great job over the years. Long may it continue.
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