Twin Peaks Day 1 misplaced control

[pete.owens]

..., so the courses and results were not voided.

But you wouldn't need to void the whole course - just take out the splits for legs into the control (the outbound legs were to marked crossing points so should not have been affected)

[RJ]

BOF Rules wrote:
3.1.1 Electronic punching offers what at first sight appears to be unlimited opportunities for adjusting results to overcome problems at an event. These include removing splits either side of a missing or mis-placed control or by redefining the control at which the race starts or finishes. It should be recognised that making such adjustments can affect the outcome of the race in many ways and should not be viewed as a simple means of converting an unfair race into a fair race.

3.1.2 Whilst it is always undesirable to void a race there will be circumstances, particularly in a major race, in which no other outcome is appropriate. Whilst removing splits may seem a fair solution, doing this does not turn an unfair race into a fair race and therefore this action should not be taken without giving serious consideration as to its fairness. An alternative to voiding is to let the results stand, and this is the recommended approach if any problem with a course is not believed to have significantly affected the outcome of the race.

It is the call of the Organiser and Controller (and Jury) as to how they solve the complaint. Just removing the splits either side of the misplaced control doesn't account for the effect this 'messing about' by the competitor at the control has affected the rest of the race.

And... it doesn't apply some 'pressure' on the sport to just get things right!! Voiding a course or two would focus attention on the problem!!

[LostAgain]

Is it right to award ranking points to a course that has legs removed?

Both MDOC and SYO (Blacka Moor) have awarded points for courses htat have had legs removed.

Not voiding the course is one thing, but awarding raking points seems to be stretching it.

[Spookster]

Is it right to award ranking points to a course that has legs removed?

Both MDOC and SYO (Blacka Moor) have awarded points for courses htat have had legs removed.

Not voiding the course is one thing, but awarding raking points seems to be stretching it.

The results as published by MDOC and SYO are the results that were deemed to be correct and fair by the organiser and controller (even though in these cases they had removed the splits of some legs). Hence they can then be used for ranking points.

If you don't think the results are fair, you complain or protest about the result, not about whether they can then be used for ranking.

[Mrs H]

It is the call of the Organiser and Controller (and Jury) as to how they solve the complaint. Just removing the splits either side of the misplaced control doesn't account for the effect this 'messing about' by the competitor at the control has affected the rest of the race.

Yes that was always the point I was making over the mis-described Lincoln City control which completely destroyed my confidence in the rest of the control descriptions. If I'd managed to beat Glenys that day - which is a big if as I was 16 seconds down at the previous control - I would have won the league based on the existing results and she would have come second and it would certainly have heated up the end of the season for both of us. But am i bitter?

There isn't actually anything that can put it right - voiding the course would have skewed the league results. But having invested a lot of time, money and effort into attending as many of the events as we could, it is rather galling to think that the title may actually have hinged on someone else's mistake and the fall out from it.

[EddieH]

[quote]Whilst removing splits may seem a fair solution, doing this does not turn an unfair race into a fair race and therefore this action should not be taken without giving serious consideration as to its fairness.[/quote]

I have never understood why this point is made. There are cases where this can be clearly true, however if competitors KNOW that controls may be removed from a course they should have the mental equipment to deal with it and carry on without giving up. If not it is really no different from giving up after any personal mistake.

Of course it is not ideal but how many people would truely prefer a whole course to be voided to a modified course which ultimately is the same for everyone.

Not voiding a leg or two is clearly more unfair in my opinion particularly when some people who have made a mistake get a massive benifit over those that haven't.

Voiding the course is the only utterly fair thing, but it is extremely negative.

Life isn't totally fair, and orienteering has a good chunk of luck in its very nature. Removing the leg where runner A put in his maximum effort (and fell on the wrong control) yet runner B chose that leg to regroup will have an effect on the result, but does that make it really unfair?

[Mrs H]

I have never understood why this point is made. There are cases where this can be clearly true, however if competitors KNOW that controls may be removed from a course they should have the mental equipment to deal with it and carry on without giving up. If not it is really no different from giving up after any personal mistake.

I think that statement says more about you than us Eddie - I have found many things can disturb my concentration - the noisy competitor (re CompassSport rant) and most particularly seeing one of my children - even if they seem to know what they are doing - guaranteed to send my compass spinning I can't ever remember thinking "oh well never ming that leg's bound to be removed" as i tend to assume the mistake is mine!

[LostAgain]

[quote="SpooksterThe results as published by MDOC and SYO are the results that were deemed to be correct and fair by the organiser and controller (even though in these cases they had removed the splits of some legs). Hence they can then be used for ranking points.[/quote]

So it is either all or nothing?

The provision of ranking points is relatively new to the lower end events (not suggesting Twin Peaks is this), Blaka Moor was a Colour Coded. Historically, ranking points were awarded at events where a formal protest would be likely should something be wrong.

The provision of ranking points at what are effectively colour coded events is new. These events have historically been prone to far more errors and are where the less experienced Officials gain experience. A misplaced control at a National event is fortunately scarce, at the old Regional event rare but at Colour Coded (District Events) is uncommon but happens several times per year in my experience.

A formal complaint and the voiding of a course is an extreme measure. The removal of the leg seems appropriate and rebases the results, but it does not however make it right. Provision of ranking points seems Official Acceptance of the correction of mistakes and that is all is good.

Maybe this needs a review in light of the extension of the number of events awarding ranking points.

[AndyC]

Mrs H,
You missed another factor -when I see something obviously/seriously wrong on a map or a course I lose confidence in the mapper and planner and am much more wary and conservative about future route choice - usually meaning I take longer- so as I don't get badly misplaced. I'm sure others react similarly

[Gnitworp]

I was one of the 'unlucky' ones to arrive in the 'right' place below the marker, but, because I could see what I perceived to be a marsh just below me, I turned right up the reentrant on the assumption that the control would be higher up, not in or below the marsh where the gradient increased. I lost little time, and my race position was not affected. Looking at Route gadget, this is what many others seemed to do.

The control was in the right (if rather shallow) reentrant. Many controls on the right linear feature are inevitably not absolutely accurately placed (misplaced controls in reentrants on steep hillsides are my pet aversion). This case was not good, but could perhaps be regarded as something that often happens to some degree. We must endeavour to reduce that degree to a minimum in future.

[deebee]

I had a late start on the Green course, as I was walking to the start I passed the time in merry banter with others returning from their run. One asked me if wanted to know about 'the control in the wrong place'. Now, my Orienteering is such that had they told me it would have just confused me and upset what passes for concentration so I didn't take up the offer. It wasn't me being ethical or trying for fairness, just the knowledge that it wouldn't have made any difference to my run. Approaching 'the' control I contoured round the side of the hill thus arriving below the kite. What suprised me was the number of competitors on coming from both directions - Green and Blue I think - who made a direct line to where the kite was. One passed across in front of me, having a quick look at my map I assumed there must have been a control on the dot knoll at the top of the re-entrant. The only assumption I could make was that, ignoring those who were just blindly following someone, a number of competitors knew that control was incorrectly placed and they knew were it was.
Ignoring the actions of others, was I stupid not taking up the offer made to me and finding out which control and where it was, or is that cheating - and should we not pass on such information after we have run?

[AndyC]

Now consider how you would have felt if the Controller had gone out and moved the control to the right place and you headed to where you were told it was?
BTB I feel about putting the control "right" the same way i did the first time I had to wait while the greenkeeper moved a pin on a golf course when half the field had already played the hole with the old pin position.

[mharky]

I have never understood why this point is made. There are cases where this can be clearly true, however if competitors KNOW that controls may be removed from a course they should have the mental equipment to deal with it and carry on without giving up. If not it is really no different from giving up after any personal mistake.

I think that statement says more about you than us Eddie - I have found many things can disturb my concentration - the noisy competitor (re CompassSport rant) and most particularly seeing one of my children - even if they seem to know what they are doing - guaranteed to send my compass spinning I can't ever remember thinking "oh well never ming that leg's bound to be removed" as i tend to assume the mistake is mine!

Despite trying to concentrate on my technique, I spent the majority of Sundays race in a rage about the bloody wall crossings. My situation may have been different to others, as when I crossing the wall (as overprint showed I was allowed to do) there was a man just standing in the woods, he then seemed to try and look at the back of my top to see what club I was in. All I was thinking was, if you try and DSQ me I'm gonna shove your incorrect final details up your ****. He may have just been someone lost, or stopped for a nice relaxing standstill. Nonetheless, my concentration was completely blown.

[Spookster]

Maybe this needs a review in light of the extension of the number of events awarding ranking points.

Last year ranking points were awarded at Level 1 and 2 events, but not 3.
This year ranking points are awarded at A,B and C events, but not D.

If you think that B events are the best of the former level 2 events, and C are the others that used to be level 2, then there hasn't actually been an increase in ranked events. However, I realise that not everyone sees the 4-level system that way.

[andypat]

Of course it is not ideal but how many people would truely prefer a whole course to be voided to a modified course which ultimately is the same for everyone.

Not voiding a leg or two is clearly more unfair in my opinion particularly when some people who have made a mistake get a massive benifit over those that haven't.

Voiding the course is the only utterly fair thing, but it is extremely negative.

I'm with Eddie on this one. You have to be pragmatic and voiding the leg rather than the race is the lesser of two evils.

I spent the first 10min of the recent EUOC SoSOL on Arthurs seat trying to find the "incorrectly placed" 1st control before finding it, exactly where it should have been. I spent the rest of the race anoyed at my own incompetence! C'est la vie....