Midland Champs

[Oldman]

... Sheringham is hardly Ultima Thule, it's what, c. 150 miles from Sheffield, Birmingham, London?

150 miles costs about £24 (£48 if 150 each way): that's a lot for most of us, especially the retired ones living on fixed, inflation-eroded pensions.

[greywolf]

With so many events appealing to people's travel weekends I suspect the area champs will struggle to have the status the BOF would lke in people's minds. That is why I think it imperative that the area champs are automatically part of the various cups or the new combined one, because if one is left out it will immediately be treated as inferior to the others.

They will need time to build up as an incentive to travel, and, as you say, will need inclusion in the various competitions to help them on the way.

Alternatively, why not recognise that the Area Champs are not automatically going to be major events, and allow clubs and regions to put on events that best suit the needs of their members and fit the sort of areas they have available, (instead of BOF nostalgically flogging a dead horse )

And even if you must have an annual Midlands Champs (because it's really important to know who's Midlands champion), why does it have to be a separate event, with location constrained by the rather arbitrary BOF subdivisions? So for example, this year, wouldn't it have made more sense for the Midlands to "share" with the Southerns, at Hambleden - probably more convenient for most midlanders too.

Eligiblity for the English Area champs is mutually exclusive: "Eligibility for the English Area Championship titles awarded at these events is defined by the Association shown on the competitor's membership card" so no problems there, and i note that on M21E and W21E there are more entries from Midlands clubs at the Southern Champs than there were eligible competitors at the Midlands...

[Muddy Boots]

Sheringham was chosen for this year's Midland because of its terrain and climb which as a Level A event requires a winning time of 90 minutes for M21E. Course lengths for other classes are determined on a defined length ratio. Many on Sunday felt this gave courses too long.

Interestingly Level A is mandatory only for the English Area Championships. As
Rule I states " The National Associations of Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales may opt to register their Area Championships as Level B". At Level B the winning time is 67 minutes for M21 with other course length ratios arranged accordingly. ie 30% less in course length than for Level A. Colour coded courses could also be used which could help the ranking where certain classes do not have enough competitors.

Why has a difference standard been agreed? Would it be acceptable sometimes for an Area Championship in England also to be at Level B? It would mean smaller areas could be used that otherwise could not give a win time of 90 minutes.

As Clive Coles hinted when the Midland returns in three years time EAOA will struggle to find a suitable area that meets Level A criteria for M21E & M21L. A decision will be required soon by the Association as an area has to be determined 27 months ahead of the event. A two year embargo will also apply.

[awk]

Course lengths for other classes are determined on a defined length ratio. Many on Sunday felt this gave courses too long.

I have to say I didn't hear anything on these lines. Looking at the times achieved and the recommended ranges, I'd say, if anything, the courses were a bit on the short side.

Would it be acceptable sometimes for an Area Championship in England also to be at Level B? It would mean smaller areas could be used that otherwise could not give a win time of 90 minutes.

The 90 minute M21E winning time is not mandatory - it's a guideline (as indicated by the fact that this section of the rules is in ordinary rather than bold type). The things that define Level A do not include course distances, but a range of other aspects.

Greywolf: whilst you may not agree with the decision to replace national events (several of which achieved lower entries than last week's Midlands) with area championships, nostalgia never came into it. All your suggestions are certainly do-able. I wonder what the reaction would be though if the Scottish Champs were held in, say, the Lake District or Northumberland. After all, it's not that big an event on its own. The Midlands Champs isn't just a championship for those in the central area, it's also the one of the championships held in that area.

So last weekend only attracted 420 or so competitors. That's still substantially more than the substantial majority of (all?) recent EA regional/Level 2/Level B events. The fixtures list has been in chaos for the past year or so. Let's see what it's like once things settle down and people have time to adjust.

[Mrs H]

Well if nothing else can we rename it The Central Champs - at least that makes some sense Otherwise there should be a separate Eastern Champs to balance up the Welsh (Western), Northern, Southern and Scottish Champs.

[graeme]

The 90 minute M21E winning time is not mandatory

Not sure what you mean here. It is mandatory to aim for a 90min winning time on M21E in a Long championship (obviously not in all level-A events like sprints).

Of course, this may not be achieved on the day, especially with the very thin M21 fields. Many planners have little experience of how fast elites do go, so good planners tend to start with the course they usually run, get the winning time for that right, then scale from there.

Because mins/km is such a reliable measure for comparing courses , other lengths are scaled from this rather than relying on the planner's judgement. Estimated winning times across all classes are also given: the mid-point is the target, and if the winning time falls outside the range the planner really ought to look at why that happened and, if there's no good reason, learn for next time.

For age-group the Area Championship Events (e.g. the Scottish Champs) have always been about 10% longer than "badge events" (e.g. SOLs). This is because the (few) Championship events are targetted at the fastest in the age group while the (many)
"badge events" are targetted at all participants.

[Neil M40]

When the area champs replaced national events the idea was that we needed fewer highest level events where BOF could oversee standards. Adopting the old area champs was simply a way of distributing the new level A events around the country (although that is undermined a bit if the Scottish is not necessarily level A). You could get rid of the level A/Area champs link but then would you need a rule to dictate the distribution of level A events, or do you accept that some years there won’t be any level A events within reach? I don’t think the status of the area champs has been enhanced at all.

Now we have the Masters Cup then I think the idea of level A events has been superseded anyway. I have been looking at the fixture list deciding how I am going to get to 8 scoring Masters Cup events. I don’t care whether they are level A or level Z. I will be making the effort to get to the Northern Champs, but not the Midland or Southern. I would rather go to the two level B Lake District races.

The trouble with the Masters Cup is that there are too many events. Remote or unattractive races will not attract large entries because everybody has a more convenient/more favoured alternative. (Not that Sheringham is unattractive – I really liked the adjacent Beeston Regis in JK86 – but it is a long way from here).

And any complaints Mrs H has about BOF’s definition of Midland have applied for ever – they have nothing to do with the current debate about event status. For most Midlanders and even some Northerners the most convenient area champs this year will be the Southern Champs. So what? Do we want all our events to be based within the space bounded by the M62/M6/M5/M4/A1 rectangle?

I think the Midland champs should be renamed the Not Northern or Southern Champs to make Mrs H happy. I always thought Birmingham was in the south anyway.

(Cue Scottish person piping up to tell me Leeds is in the south. You’re right – I’m from Teesside)

[awk]

The 90 minute M21E winning time is not mandatory

Not sure what you mean here. It is mandatory to aim for a 90min winning time on M21E in a Long championship (obviously not in all level-A events like sprints).

As far as I can see, the M21E winning times are governed under Competition Rules for Area Championships, rules 2.1.3, 4.3.3 and the table of distances, winning times and ratios. None are mandatory (i.e. they are not in bold); 2.1.3 starts with the words "As a guide" and 4.3.3 with the words "Estimated winning times are provided as guidance only". Nowhere can I find any statement that even aiming at these is mandatory, but of course may have missed something.

On the issue of event status (eg in NeilM40's post) - it's early days yet for the reintroduced championship structure. NeilM40 may be right that the Midlands enhanced status came from being part of the UKMC. I don't see that as a problem. After all, looking at it another way, the UKMC went to the Sheringham event mainly because it was the Midlands Champs, so the enhanced status provided by the championship designation did boost its status, however that was achieved.

On the number of event in the UKMC - yes there are quite a lot. This was a deliberate decision by the senior competitions group to try and make sure that there were sufficient events of sufficient variety around the country for people to compete in without masses and masses of travelling. I suggest this is another case of let's see how it works out this year. Personally, I'd rather see a few too many than a few too few, and think that the programme looks very attractive (but as a member of that group, I probably would say that, wouldn't I?!).

[AndyC]

On the subject of distance for M21E,because of confusion over Colin's move to Scotland,I began with another planner to look at the course planning for the Northern Champs and we spent some time considering how long we needed to make the course to get the right winning time (I was keen to use extra climb to help shorten if only because the views are good from the hill tops!). I/We used the results of events on similar areas and the result of the event there in 2008 as guidance. Fortunately Colin was able to release himself from SOA duties to finish his planning so I'm not needed other than as back-up.
I've noted from Colin's hints in that thread that he has ended up with a very similar answer to us so it looks like he's got it right. I'll have a better idea at the end of next week when I'm rendering myself definitely non-competitive by walking the area with the master map so as we've got support for him and the Controller on the day in case of unforeseen difficulties.(Blatant Plug - that will be only deferred if I need to do anything as organiser for the Dipton Event on 6th March but as everything is in place and the weather looks like it won't stop us this time.......)
I'll be looking for that stoat.
For the day in Newcastle Centre I know that the planner has test run the courses -and factoring in his speed relative to the elite suggests some exciting racing there is possible.

[graeme]

Subject: Midland Champs

(although that is undermined a bit if the Scottish is not necessarily level A).

The SOA has always been committed to holding the Scottish to higher standards. We would not, for example, hold it on an area like Sheringham (no criticism of EAOA meant: we shouldn't have to). On the other hand, given the cost of mapping a big forest, and the lower numbers up here, we need have to be pragmatic about, e.g. using 6-day areas within two years, or remapping for legibility at 1:15000. So the principle of having a top quality race every year in Scotland stands, regardless of the formal level.

Cue some english person moaning about the f*ck up that was the totally-level-A compliant Tentsmuir Individual

[EddieH]

I am not so sure that this is invariably so. I can remember one Scottish Champs in recent years which most certainly will not have matched up with Sheringham.

Let's give English regions due acknowledgement of some decent terrain.

[Clive Coles]

it seems Mrs H what you really want to redefine is the Midlands catchment area so that is within an easy 60 minute drive from your home.

Presumeably you are happy for the Welsh having their own National Championship and your new Central Championship being staged by WMOA and EMOA on alternate years.

I guess that leaves EAOA out on a limb to run the Eastern Championship every year. We had better try to find one of Graeme's "big" forests to map as Sherringham next year will fail the embargo rules.

oink oink

[graeme]

We had better try to find one of Graeme's "big" forests

You do that. We'll try to find a Scottish area with 30million people within 150miles...

..and I bet we'll both succeed before people stop demanding the same standards across the country.

[awk]

The only issue at Sheringham was the lower than perhaps expected turnout. There was little that the organisers could have done to deal with that, other than physically move the area, or alter people's perceptions of the area, neither of which were particularly realistic.
It was an excellent race, and worthy of Level A status.

If we were to put the requirement to ensure big turnouts, then we would never have had some of the historically outstanding championships - cue the British at Culbin a couple of years ago, or indeed the British at Achray a couple of decades ago, when the numbers dropped massively compared to previous years.

The Midlands Champs is the area championship for the central three English associations. Those people in Norfolk etc have to travel long distances ad nauseam in other years; it's no great sacrifice to reverse the honours this year. Next year it's more central again, on an area that I have ghastly memories of, and will take a fair amount of persuasion that it'll be up to scratch for a top class event, especially given what other terrain is available in the West Midlands.

[Mrs H]

Oi! Clive! what's with the oink oink. I'll just point out I did go to Sheringham at the weekend - but not because it was the Midlands Champs but because it was a Master's cup event, otherwise I probably wouldn't have bothered.

And Awk - as no one's been in there in yonks your memory must be playing tricks on you - anyway the event the day before will be worth traveling for alone - and remind me to piss on your next event before it happens.