Midland Champs

[Scott]

To be fair, if there had been a way of linking the Chasing Sprint with the Southern Champs in the fixtures system we probably would have taken it, but it's not possible if the two days are being organised by different clubs. And I doubt that the NOR Saturday event was considered "Level A" anywhere outside of the BOF fixtures software.

The "more days" icon is a really good idea, and a very effective way of raising awareness if you're putting on (say) a smaller Saturday event to go with your big Sunday event. It's just a shame that whoever wrote the software specification appears to have rather overspecified the requirements as same club, same level. I think BOF are aware of the issue, so hopefully it will be addressed eventually.

[Clive Coles]

Refer to my post earlier in this thread: NOR have been frustrated trying to fit their Midland Championship weekend into the BOF fixtures registration and on-line entry systems.

There is a fundamental design flaw in the BOF data model that has been there since the outset of the previous database.

The oversight was pointed out at the time; BOF were too involved in testing to have the time to rectify the situation before the system was launched. They have yet to return to correct the outstanding "features".

A) the model assumes that all events at a multi-day are staged at the same level. Day 1 - Felbrigg is not a level A event. That, I believe, is why Fabian is charging local BOF members the non-discounted rate for Felbrigg. ( you should be able to get your £2 back at the event !)

B) the model also assumes that multi-days are always staged by the same regional association. That caused an event registration problem when SMOC (EAOA) and LEI (EMOA) tried to stage a Midland Sprint and Middle Distance multi-day Championship last year.

Computers can, and should make life simple .

Felbrigg never was intended to be a level A event ~ when proposed to the Regional committee it was going to be a low key Regional colour coded event. That's effectively what they put on ~ a level C in todays terms.

But BOF Fixture registration software still does not allow a multiday to be registered with events which are staged with differing levels ~ hence the confusion.

Not sure I share your "implied observation" Eddie that the Felbrigg Retro event should not be ranked because pin punches were utilised between start and finish.

Had NOR been able to register the event at the intended level, runners at Felbrigg could have been ranked. Someone seemes to have deemed that the event has to be a level D (as it was not a proper level A event) as I noticed the ranking points for Felbrigg disappeared last night. It's a silly situation.

How does anyone know if and when points will be awarded ? It's a lottery.

[EddieH]

Well if there are any criteria to split level C from D I would take e punching as a definite - far more relevant than traders etc.

[AndyC]

On the question of two days at different levels the two days associated with the Northern Champs - Newcastle Urban and Ray Demense -are ranked at C & A respectively.
(see it's Not Grim up North thread for the proper plug).
The former could (with the minor exception that the Controller doesn't have the piece of paper to grade him higher -the other officials do and he has the experience) make a valid claim for B status in most respects.
Despite the risks involved it should have SI punching for example (I believe that TA cadets have been arranged for guard duties - interesting that from their use at other events the tactic can be to look for the cadet not the flag (they are bigger and camoflage doesn't work as well in town) -but they sometimes wander away from the control while keeping it in view) and with the facilities of central Newcastle on hand almost everything else sorts itself out!

[Scott]

Well if there are any criteria to split level C from D I would take e punching as a definite

The "quality table" does indeed specify electronic punching at Level C and above.

[awk]

The "quality table" does indeed specify electronic punching at Level C and above.

The system still allowed the retro-event at Felbrigg (pin punches and all) to be registered Level A (although the ranking points have now been removed, so only nominally so)

[Muddy Boots]

Some of us do seem to be obsessed with ranking points. We do need to be careful that the tail does not wag the dog and that ranking points, toilets and traders become more important than the sport itself.

As Clive Coles has explained here more than once, it is the BO system that created the Felbrigg event as level A and not the NOR club who from the early and final details were clearly indicating an event that could only be thought of as level D. For the BO system, because it wrongly labelled it as level A, then to later award ranking points is a joke and it should be looked at as a matter of urgency so this problem never arises again.

Did those who chose to run at Felbrigg expect to receive ranking points. I should think it never crossed their minds. Instead I am sure most found they ran on well planned colour coded courses on a high quality, contoured, runnable but small area terrain. For most of us this is what our sport will always be about.

[Clive Coles]

The BOF quality rules never envisaged a situation like this

Colour Coded - White to Brown Pin Punching & control cards will be used but with a SI Start & Finish

Felbrigg had a punching start and a punching finish ~ the controls in between used pin punches. We are dealing with a hybrid ~ a bit of both. We need to apply common sense to a situation that was never envisaged by our rule makers..

Some 130 senior orienteers could well have travelled to the event ( which for reasons already explained had been recorded a level A event) in the expectation that they could earn ranking points. I don't remenber noticing anything in the event publicity that suggested the event would not be ranked. Was level D ever mentioned anywhere ?


Felbrigg IMO was not a noddy level D event. NOR staged a full 8 course colour coded event that, provided overprinted maps, was planned and controlled with experienced officials on a area which in the past has served as a JK venue. In all other respects the event met the level C guidelines.

The fact that pin punches were used to record that a competitor visited each control rather than a SI station is a mechanical issue. It is a fraction slower at each control point to punch rather than dib. It was however the same for everone ~ no body was disadvantaged.

So I still ask ... Why shouldn't the event be ranked just like a regular Sunday morning level C event ?

Just trying to be fair Muddy to those who care about these things and did turned up to run. For me. the fact that I am ranked at all has always been a joke !

[AndyC]

I'm going to point out that this "hybrid" with electronic start and finish and pin punches out in the field should have been considered because it is increasingly common. It reduces the value of equipment vulnerable to vandalism dramatically but still allows accurate timing and minimises the number of people needed while still allowing quick results (even if they are subject to checking of control cards).
While this will be most common at D I see no reason why it couldn't be allowed at C if everything else was to the appropriate standard.

[SJC]

The BOF quality rules never envisaged a situation like this.

But the following (or similar) has been in the BOF Rules for many years:
1.3.9 For Level C events the Organiser may vary or supplement the existing Rules to meet
particular local requirements, subject to approval from the Controller and the
Constituent Association that registered the event.

This seems to be a perfect example of varying the rules to meet the requirement of giving competitors a chance to run a high quality retro event. There doesn't seem to be any reason for not awarding ranking points to those that took part.

[Muddy Boots]

Sorry Clive but you are wrong to see level D events as always being of a 'Noddy' standard. If you read BO Guideline A dated January 2011 for Level D events it states :-

" However even at this level it is essential that if a course is designated as being of a particular colour, then it shall be of correct length and technical difficulty"

[Steve]

There doesn't seem to be any reason for not awarding ranking points to those that took part.

The reason would be that there was no start official and no start clock - all competitors set off when they wanted to. You had to ask people at the start what course they were doing to avoid starting very close to somebody on the same course. Not everybody was bothered about asking, or timing a fair interval on their watch.

This lack of start discipline was the only disappointment in an otherwise excellent event.

[Clive Coles]

Sorry Muddy ~ didn't mean to imply all level D's are Noddy in a quality way. More a question of size.

In our part of East Anglia we apply a "guideline" that full blown colour coded events are registered at level C. Small limited colour code events ( such as 5 course CATI's) and mid-week 2 course mini-leagues are registered at level D. We apply some quality guidlines to these events as well. Maps for example are overprinted with their courses. Colours correspond with the BOF guidelines.Horses for courses.

The issue with the NOR "retro" event is how you set expectations. Nobody expected it to be a level A event but... what level was it ? Would it be ranked or not? There seemed to be nothing in the event flyer or on the BOF Fixtures data that gave anyone a clue.

If however you look at the NOR Fixtures web page this uses the term "District Colour Coded" event for the Felbrigg fixture. If you look further down their page at the remaining District Colour Coded events in the NOR fixture programme they are all shown to be level C District Colour Code events. Level C events are Ranking events under the current system. So. in the absence of any other guidance seems fair for some orienteers to have assumed that the event would be ranked.

Certain age classes got a pretty poor deal from the Midland Championship weekend if, and only if , they are folk who like to travel the country to accrue ranking points. ( In all other respects it seems to have been a great event). But they failed to get any ranking points on the Saturday and if there were insufficient ranked runners for their course on the Sunday, they didn't get any there either.

We are not managing expectations. To come to an Area Championship and come away with no points at all suggests to me we have got it wrong. The Area Championships are after all the premier events of the season aimed to attract the most competitive orienteers .

[ifor]

No reason for e punching meaning no ranking points. We coped perfectly well before is became avalible.

The reason why you maybe should not be awarding ranking points is that a reasonable preportion of the entry may not of been trying anything like they normaly would just treating it as a training exercise and saving there legs for the important event the next day.

[awk]

We are not managing expectations. To come to an Area Championship and come away with no points at all suggests to me we have got it wrong. The Area Championships are after all the premier events of the season aimed to attract the most competitive orienteers .

I think that the only thing that was "wrong" was the geographical location: Sheringham is a long way from the centres of orienteering population. That will likely become an increasing issue as the cost of fuel etc continues to increase.

There is no doubt in my mind that people are becoming increasingly selective. It is now possible in a number of areas, to access good to reasonable quality orienteering on a regular basis (2-3+ times a month within 20 miles or so). For those people, there needs to be a major incentive to travel, especially to travel several hours. An area championship/nationial event is, it looks like, not sufficient incentive on its own f or a lot of people.

We both thought the Midlands was a great event - but I've been to that area before and know what to expect; OH didn't, and was pleasantly surprised. She'll go back now, but wouldn't have gone without that extra 'incentive'! Something to perhaps think about when promoting events?