Results and Rankings.

[rocky]

General ranking system question...

I really like sites like The Power of 10 or Scottish Hill Racing where you can quickly see all the races a runner has done.

Is this possible with the current ranking list? If so, how; if not, is it a planned development?

[awk]

I haven't taken a great interest in the rankings, but an interesting quirk (anomaly?) has been pointed out to me. At our (Aire) event at Temple Newsam on Sunday, it was possible to run the Short Blue and earn more points than someone running exactly the same time on the Blue. It was even possible to run a time on the Short Blue (6.6km) and earn almost the same (about 15 points less out of 1000+) as someone running exactly the same time on the Brown (7.9km).

Seems to me to be a bit odd to put it mildly.

[madmike]

When the new ranking system came in we lost the ability to see all the ranking points we had achieved in the year - I missed this facility and asked whether this was a deliberate or accidental ommission and was told it was planned for a subsequent update - no time was specified......nor was a direct answer given.....

would love BOF to provide something like those sites

[IkeySol]

My issue is slightly different but that the last few events Ive done for some reason I seem to be coming through on the results without my BOF number listed despite entering with it.

Ive emailed the two clubs (POTOC and WRE) and neither of them know how to fix it, Ive emailed BOF 3 times to different addresses and had no reply whatsoever from them.

Anyone got any ideas on who to contact to fix this?

[DJM]

Come on, Spookster, get to it!

No need Martin, I'm on the job already ...

[DJM]

Rocky wrote:

I really like sites like The Power of 10 or Scottish Hill Racing where you can quickly see all the races a runner has done.

You mean like the IOF rankings at http://iof.6prog.org/wr_home.aspx? Yes, this feature has always been on the wish list and it's hoped that it will be implemented in time.

[greywolf]

I haven't taken a great interest in the rankings, but an interesting quirk (anomaly?) has been pointed out to me. At our (Aire) event at Temple Newsam on Sunday, it was possible to run the Short Blue and earn more points than someone running exactly the same time on the Blue. It was even possible to run a time on the Short Blue (6.6km) and earn almost the same (about 15 points less out of 1000+) as someone running exactly the same time on the Brown (7.9km).

Seems to me to be a bit odd to put it mildly.

it probably is an anomaly arising (as b4) from the seed data overrating older age groups .... but then these courses aren't hugely different lengths - the guidelines suggest brown should be ~ 90% longer than short blue, not ~ 20% longer

[edit: after looking on routegadget, maybe they should have been named very long orange, very very long orange and very very very long orange ]

[awk]

own should be ~ 90% longer than short blue, not ~ 20% longer

Should that make a difference? All it's done, as far as I can see, is make it easier to identify the anomaly. But yes, technically the Brown should have probably been labelled a Short Brown, and the Short Blue should have been a couple of hundred metres shorter. Don't think it affected anybody's enjoyment though.

[edit: after looking on routegadget, maybe they should have been named very long orange, very very long orange and very very very long orange ]

Very possibly, but as I said, it was highly enjoyable nonetheless, and the speed found many people out. Certainly, it was no more orange than an urban race, or many other level C events.
And none of this, as far as I can see, explains the anomaly.

Should we, now just over a year in, still be getting see data causing such problems? And, if so, can anyone say how much longer will it take to bed in, because this sort of anomaly doesn't make for even a 'fun' competition, let alone a credible ranking list.

[greywolf]

technically the Brown should have probably been labelled a Short Brown

looking at the times i'd think it was closer to being a Blue, whilst the course labelled "blue" maybe should have been "Slightly Short Blue" ...

Should that make a difference?

you're pointing out that runners with the same finishing time on different courses got the same number of points - i'm pointing out that these courses are almost the same length (and given the TD3 nature, the effective course lengths around the optimum routes might be even closer)

Should we ... still be getting ... such problems?

2 things: if seed data errors are to blame then (the theory is that )they will eventually be diluted by actual results, especially those from events with less courses (= more mixing of age classes) - but clubs / associations haven't been registering (for rankings) all the events they should / could; and whilst fixes (by DJM etc) have been proposed for some issues, implementation is in BOF's hands and given that they're struggling to distinguish between the type of event and that event's level i wouldn't hold your breath

[Spookster]

My issue is slightly different but that the last few events Ive done for some reason I seem to be coming through on the results without my BOF number listed despite entering with it.

Ive emailed the two clubs (POTOC and WRE) and neither of them know how to fix it, Ive emailed BOF 3 times to different addresses and had no reply whatsoever from them.

Anyone got any ideas on who to contact to fix this?

How did you enter these events? Was it pre-entry online, or EOD?

In my experience some EODs often end up in the results system without BOF numbers (the typist just types in name/club/class), and I then need to review the final results (before uploading to BOF) and include BOF numbers for anyone who is missing one but is a BOF member. BOF numbers can be found reasonably easily for most people.

If you pre-entered using Fabian4 or similar, then I don't know why you are coming out in the results without a BOF number...

Who are you?

[Spookster]

I haven't taken a great interest in the rankings, but an interesting quirk (anomaly?) has been pointed out to me. At our (Aire) event at Temple Newsam on Sunday, it was possible to run the Short Blue and earn more points than someone running exactly the same time on the Blue. It was even possible to run a time on the Short Blue (6.6km) and earn almost the same (about 15 points less out of 1000+) as someone running exactly the same time on the Brown (7.9km).

Seems to me to be a bit odd to put it mildly.

Here's the graph of ranking points versus corrected mins/km. Yes, at this event Short Blue has been somewhat overscored, and Brown somewhat underscored, whilst Blue, Green, Short Green and Light Green are all "about right".

TempleNewshamRankings.JPG (53.42 KiB) Viewed 5036 times

[EddieH]

The thing that surprises me is how consistent the scores are in general. There are however the occasional absurd anomoly where someone gets 100 points more (130 in one case) in one race than they achieve anywhere else. As only 6 events count these do have an inordinate effect on that individual's ranking.

Will these occasional blip ever be resolved I wonder?

[Scott]

A lot of these occasional blips - probably including Short Blue at Temple Newsam - are due to the "small courses" rule that applies when there are fewer than twenty competitors (discussed at various points earlier in this thread). I understand that this is going to be scrapped at some point in the near future, so courses with 10-19 competitors will be scored in the same way as larger ones (unless this has already been implemented - Spookster, DJM?).

[IkeySol]

How did you enter these events? Was it pre-entry online, or EOD?

In my experience some EODs often end up in the results system without BOF numbers (the typist just types in name/club/class), and I then need to review the final results (before uploading to BOF) and include BOF numbers for anyone who is missing one but is a BOF member. BOF numbers can be found reasonably easily for most people.

If you pre-entered using Fabian4 or similar, then I don't know why you are coming out in the results without a BOF number...

Who are you?

They were both EOD. But Im absolutely certain in both of them I filled in my BOF number and age class etc. I didnt do overly well in either but its the principle of seeing how badly I did!

Im Kelvin Dawson M35 run for WCH. The events were the WRE Bury Ditches event at the end of October and the POTOC Park Hall event the week before.

[Spookster]

They were both EOD. But Im absolutely certain in both of them I filled in my BOF number and age class etc. I didnt do overly well in either but its the principle of seeing how badly I did!

Im Kelvin Dawson M35 run for WCH. The events were the WRE Bury Ditches event at the end of October and the POTOC Park Hall event the week before.

In that case I'm fairly sure that the problem is failure to type your BOF number into the results computer (even though you put it on a form). If rankings are posted immediately after an event, and your score is missing, you can send your BOF number to the club and get them to re-submit. But if the events are last October, then the opportunity to do that has long gone.