If possible i would like someone to explain to me the use of 1:15000 scale at the major events for the longer courses.
I am an M21 who has been orienteering since i was very young, but i always find it extremely difficult to see the detail when 1:15000 maps are used on more complex terrain. I cannot see the necessity. I orienteer for the mental and physical challenge, not the ocular one!
I actually think it takes away some of the actual orienteering challenge because although the detail is there it cannot be seen so i have to run on a bearing. I am particularly referring to the JK2010 on Braunton Burrows.
I wondered whether it was a regulation for major events to be run on 1:15000 so i checked back through my maps from previous events. I have maps from both the French 6 days 2008 and Portuguese O Summer 2009 (which incorporated a world ranking event). Both these events were on very technical terrain and had scales to match, the french event used scales as large as 1:5000 for long events, whereas the portuguese used 1:10000 but with 2.5m contours. This led to large maps but it was no hardship to fold them.
If international events of this prestige are allowed to use 1:10000 and less why can't we? And if it's because there is a BOF regulation about major championships should we think about using areas that support 1:15000 more comfortably?
The use of 1:15000 scale
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Re: The use of 1:15000 scale
The use of 1:15 is mandatory for WRE long courses, so not a lot can be done about it. The use of 1:15 for other races is just crap. If the area you are running on is half way decent, it will hopefully have intricate contour detail tof the sort that makes the map impossible to decipher at 1:15. Some moan that a 1:10 map of some areas results in a map that is too big to fold easily etc. I think a trial should be done for a period of time - offer one box of 1:10 and one of 1:15 for each course, and I guarantee 1:10 will go first. I have perfect eyesight too...
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Re: The use of 1:15000 scale
I agree, the 1:15,000 map of Braunton Burrows was very hard to make out any detail. The next day at the relay, everything became much clearer; I was actually navigating to the control rather than running to the vague smudge of contours and hunting.
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m4rk - yellow
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Re: The use of 1:15000 scale
ianf wrote:If possible i would like someone to explain to me the use of 1:15000 scale at the major events for the longer courses.
I'm always up for a challenge
The point of 1:15 is that you can see the general shape of the land, and the whole of a decent long leg in one go. Trying to decipher the ups and downs along a 3km leg, let alone managing to fold the paper, isn't what it's about. If you saw the excellent article by Thierry posted here recently, you'll see why it only slows you down to read most of the clutter on the maps we get today.
I didn't use 1:15 map at Braunton, but I did hear the 21E winner describe it as "drawn
by a 3-year old with a crayon". So maybe it's not the best example. I did get a 1:15 at BOC this year. It was perfect for planning the long legs. I couldn't read it in the quarry, and apparently that was also an advantage.
Graeme (always myopic, now wears bifocals, always did better on 1:10 maps)
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Re: The use of 1:15000 scale
The problem is perhaps not the scale of the map but the level of detail included on the map for any given scale. There is a trend towards putting more an more detail on the map perhaps fuelled by better quality base maps and the use of OCAD.
In many cases areas have been transformed by new maps at 1:7,500, 1:5000 or larger scales usually to support middle distance or sprint races. In some cases (BOC at Culbin for example) larger scale maps have even been used to good effect for long distance races as well.
As Graeme points out its difficult to accommodate decent long legs with genuine route choice challenges on larger scale maps and 1:15,000 is perhaps the right scale for longer courses, but the mapper needs to except that much of the detail needs to be omitted for clarity.
Having struggled for some time to read the detail on most maps I agree with Graeme that this can be an advantage - you have no choice but to simplify the leg, read the control description and make sure that you enter the control circle confident that you are in the right place. Having said that I still enjoy the recent change to offering us aged types a larger scale map.
Incidentally Graeme I had the 1:10,000 map and a magnifier at Braunton Burrows and could see every stroke of the crayon, it didn't help much - it was just a poor map!
In many cases areas have been transformed by new maps at 1:7,500, 1:5000 or larger scales usually to support middle distance or sprint races. In some cases (BOC at Culbin for example) larger scale maps have even been used to good effect for long distance races as well.
As Graeme points out its difficult to accommodate decent long legs with genuine route choice challenges on larger scale maps and 1:15,000 is perhaps the right scale for longer courses, but the mapper needs to except that much of the detail needs to be omitted for clarity.
Having struggled for some time to read the detail on most maps I agree with Graeme that this can be an advantage - you have no choice but to simplify the leg, read the control description and make sure that you enter the control circle confident that you are in the right place. Having said that I still enjoy the recent change to offering us aged types a larger scale map.
Incidentally Graeme I had the 1:10,000 map and a magnifier at Braunton Burrows and could see every stroke of the crayon, it didn't help much - it was just a poor map!
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buzz - addict
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Re: The use of 1:15000 scale
The biggest problem with the JK map was the paths in the middle of the map. They didn't need to be on the map and they basically covered all the detail that was useful for navigation. It was impossible to make out the shape of the land in that area. The relay map was better because it used the more northern part which didn't have many paths on it.
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Re: The use of 1:15000 scale
graeme wrote: If you saw the excellent article by Thierry posted here recently, you'll see why it only slows you down to read most of the clutter on the maps we get today
...but there's few in British orienteering who's as good a navigator as TG, let alone on M21L! Then again, practice makes perfect!
1:15000 at Cookesworthy/BOC was fine as they're quite simple areas, but I lost a lot of time on Braunton due to not being able to decipher what the hell was going on. (Thankfully it didn't make me suffer as much as it might have as lot of the others on M21L did as well!)
As far as 'getting a long leg onto one folded piece of paper' I don't think this applies for M21L as we don't have the meaty long legs the elites get: The longest leg from M21L at JK and BOC was 9.5cm (BOC 8-9/20-21). On 1:10,000 these would be just under 15cm in length - easy to get onto one folded side! That said, the whole Braunton map at 1:10 would be 60cm (2ft) long (although the top could have been removed as only 21E went up there.)
Despite being happier on 1:10000 you've got to make the best of what you're given, and when I finish a course badly I blame myself for being a tool and not the tools (although sometimes I question the direction my compass actually points in )
On 1:10000 I'm 'quick', 1:15000 it depends on the area (14th at JK->4th at BOC). On 1:40000 at the OMM - well if it weren't for my hardly-orienteers-partner with even less nav nouse than me, we'd have finished a lot lower than the 4th we ended up in...
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Re: The use of 1:15000 scale
but I lost a lot of time on Braunton due to not being able to decipher what the hell was going on
which was nothing to do with the scale, and all to do with the unnecessary mapping of tiny marshes, vegetation, and the thick black tank tracks. Properely mapped the contours on the area would have provided everything needed to naviagte accurately through the dunes.
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Re: The use of 1:15000 scale
Ianf,
like you I struggled to see complex 1:15 maps as a M21 (and 35& 40). Now, as a first year M45, I now feel I am taking part in a different sport - I found the 1:10 map of Braunton Burrows really easy to intrepret and my only time loss was due to my own incompetence/a loss of concentration.
As a blind as a bat M21 some years ago I put a magnifier on my thumb compass and would recommend that for technical areas but only real solution is to look forward to becoming a M45 - it's great.
like you I struggled to see complex 1:15 maps as a M21 (and 35& 40). Now, as a first year M45, I now feel I am taking part in a different sport - I found the 1:10 map of Braunton Burrows really easy to intrepret and my only time loss was due to my own incompetence/a loss of concentration.
As a blind as a bat M21 some years ago I put a magnifier on my thumb compass and would recommend that for technical areas but only real solution is to look forward to becoming a M45 - it's great.
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madmike - guru
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Re: The use of 1:15000 scale
As an M21, I tended to much prefer 1:15k maps. Now, as an M50, I can't actually resolve much of the information, and need at least 1:10k to be able to see the map (and, contrary to Mapping Committee's opinion, 1:7.5k on occasions).
However, in those dim and distant days of M21, we had offset litho printed maps, which were drawn by pen or scribing. Now many maps are laser printed, which gives a poorer quality of print, and the use of OCAD drawing at larger magnifications (we tended to only draw at double size) has meant that cartographers can squeeze more and more info onto a map which looks legible when magnified, but all too crammed together at final print. That's in addition to the points made above about base maps etc.
However, in those dim and distant days of M21, we had offset litho printed maps, which were drawn by pen or scribing. Now many maps are laser printed, which gives a poorer quality of print, and the use of OCAD drawing at larger magnifications (we tended to only draw at double size) has meant that cartographers can squeeze more and more info onto a map which looks legible when magnified, but all too crammed together at final print. That's in addition to the points made above about base maps etc.
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awk - god
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Re: The use of 1:15000 scale
WRE are recommended to print 1:15000 on traditional litho methods. !:15 at the Trossachs would prob not have been very clear laser printed.... it was also bagged.
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Re: The use of 1:15000 scale
Gross has a point . At least part of the reason people have recently started to struggle with 1:15 is the move to laser printing. Luckily top controllers like Gross wouldn't allow a major event to go ahead with laser printed maps...
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Re: The use of 1:15000 scale
graeme wrote:Luckily top controllers like Gross wouldn't allow a major event to go ahead with laser printed maps...
Unless the BOF Mapping Committee agreed before the controller knew about it
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Re: The use of 1:15000 scale
I've heard that D15's are getting 1:15000 maps at the O-ringen. Think I'll need to get training with some to get used to it.
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a timely bump
a bit of a bump of this, seeing as the debate has come back into fashion courtesy of the French organisers of the World Championships next year and Anne Margrethe Hausken...
So, whose group would you join?
1:15,000 = part of the challenge of a classic race and should be mapped accordingly, areas unsuitable to be legibly mapped at this scale shouldn't be used.
1:10,000 = necessary to make a fair competition on technical areas where maps at 1:15,000 aren't legible.
So, whose group would you join?
1:15,000 = part of the challenge of a classic race and should be mapped accordingly, areas unsuitable to be legibly mapped at this scale shouldn't be used.
1:10,000 = necessary to make a fair competition on technical areas where maps at 1:15,000 aren't legible.
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