EOD Fees

[RJ]

Merely to illustrate the point about EOD fees.... I will quote the SROC Whitbarrow event from last Sunday. EOD for this regional (Level 2) event was £13 for a senior (non BOF). This really does not make sense!

First. The main target audience (MP3 and BOF agenda!) is the young fit M21, who wants to try the sport, and perhaps has been attending Local events and found them to his liking. He finds out about the Sunday event, and turns up to pay £13 plus £1 for a SI Card hire. He won't do that again! Having paid £2 entry for his evening events and got the SI Card hire for free he is somewhat *issed-off. And has paid £6 for his district events.

Second. Just what extra costs are there for the EOD entries that justify the increase in the fee. Print a few extra maps.

Third. This colour coded event had three extra courses from a normal district colour coded event. Why the enormous increase in fees when comparing the two levels of event. The levy is exactly the same. Surely the general expenses are the same.

Now if we want to move this sport forward then we are going to have to address this little 'problem'. Entry fees are important, both for the club to sustain their activities, and for the 'pocket' of the competitor.

IMO we should be encouraging as many competitors to come along to our events, so NO surcharge for EOD. With rather higher numbers attending a regional event as compared to a district event, the economics are in favour of the regional even by keeping the fees the same as the district event. If the club sees the regional event as an opportunity to make money then there is little doubt that the L2 structure is in real trouble.

To reiterate..... the SROC Whitbarrow event is merely taken as an example of the problem to be addressed. The CSpCupFinal was another one!

[awk]

I assume that the reason for the high fees is to encourage pre-entries, whilst still providing EOD.

If that is the case - then are there other ways that will allow for same fees for pre-entry/EOD? If not, then I suspect the high EOD will remain.

[SeanC]

One point I'd like to make is that it's very difficult for us, the experienced orienteer, to judge the deterrent effect of high cost on new orienteers relative to the other deterrent factors that we find hard to apprieciate. For example on sunday a new member of my club (been to 3 local events) asked me "am I allowed to go to a regional event?", "do I have to have reached a certain standard to be allowed to run?", and "can I run any course?". To her a "regional" event sounded not for the newcomer, rather like entering a marathon 2 weeks after starting jogging. So publicity, good communication etc etc may be more important than cost for new orienteers?

Speaking of which: Price increase for the Chelwood regional event December 5th. Enter by December 17th to guarentee a map. We need a reasonable turnout to pay our mapping costs (brand new professional survey), and access restrictions prevent us using the area for anything other than small events for the next few years.

[King Penguin]

....are there other ways that will allow for same fees for pre-entry/EOD?

Pre-printed vs master map and mark up yourself (after the start of course, so in you run time).

[RJ]

.......to encourage pre-entries......

To use Whitbarrow as the example again.... I think there were over three hundred entries for this L2 event. Our regular Cumbrian Galoppen district events attract 280+

Difference?????

I think the justification for the increased entry fees is hiding behind a very weak set of logic. Might have been true years ago before district events had overprinted maps etc. Not true any more. Part of the reason for the regional event demise.

[graeme]

Yes, you'd never get hundreds of people to shell out £15 for a long-O in the Lake District. Even if it did catch on, it wouldn't last.


http://www.ldmta.org.uk/archive.html

To use Whitbarrow as the example again.... I think there were over three hundred entries for this L2 event. Our regular Cumbrian Galoppen district events attract 280+

and therefore it follow that high fees are discouraging people from entering.

[RJ]

Yes, you'd never get hundreds of people to shell out £15 for a long-O in the Lake District.

Why don't you extend your 'non-sequitur' logic to the Saunders Mountain Marathon!!??

[DavidJ]

Whilst not seeking to defend excessive charges for entry on the day, the number that come is much more dependent on other factors, especially the weather. Two necent events here in the South come to mind. The November Classic and last weekend's OK Nuts Trophy. Both were in pretty awful weather and any additional EOD would, I suspect, have been very limited (I might be wrong - some data might be interesting although the november Classic only had EOD for a couple of colour coded courses). There does need to be an adequate incentive to encourage pre-entry for financial reasons as well as organisational ones: pre-enter with your own e-card and you usually head straight to the start leaving the organisers free to deal with other issues.

[Sunlit Forres]

Personally, I don't have a problem paying extra if a club has produced a new map for the event and needs to recoup the money. Provided the entry info states it's a new map, the orienteering community should be prepared to pay a bit more to encourage clubs to map new areas.

As far as EOD charges go, road races always charge extra for EOD so I don't see why we should be any different. However, if you add a £2 EOD levy to a £2 non-BOF levy the fees do start to get a bit silly for those newcomers we're trying to hook in. How about letting non-BOF members off the EOD charge but still charge them the £2 non-BOF levy? That way, everyone who enters on the day pays a straight £2 more (but for different reasons). I admit it amounts to letting newcomers off the BOF levy, but are we trying to encourage newcomers or not?

BOF members might feel they're losing out on the deal, but by being in BOF you should know that you can save your £2 by entering in advance. Newcomers don't.

[Scott]

Yes, you'd never get hundreds of people to shell out £15 for a long-O in the Lake District. Even if it did catch on, it wouldn't last.

To be fair to the Mountain Trial, your £15 does normally include vast quantities of food after your run (this year they had the biggest potatoes I have ever seen ), plus commentary, indoor toilets and proper showers... I'm not sure that £15 at a L2 orienteering event will get you quite the same quantity/quality of added extras.

[Zokko!]

Although I was not a party to the setting of fees for Whitbarrow I believe there are highish access fees to consider. What RJ failed to mention was that SROC had a lower fee of £7 for adults on the less technical courses up to Light Green, with no EOD surcharge. This was obviously aimed at encouraging newcomers. Similarly there was no surcharge on the junior rate.

Actual entry numbers were 270 pre-entries and a further 108 EODs, despite the atrocious weather. These included a group of fairly novice students who entered in pairs and threes, presumably sharing the fee.

[distracted]

Clubs should be able to justify what they are charging for an event. If they can't do this, they shouldn't be charging such fees.

On that note, I'd be interested to hear an explanation for the entry fees at the upcoming Beaudesert event. It seems to be offering nothing more than the regional event that was there just under 2 years back, and already has 200 or so more entries...

I think some clubs are still seeing "regional event" as meaning "guaranteed big entry" and hence "charge more and make big profit." What excuse is there for that, especially if you've got several k sitting in the bank doing nothing? What are clubs offering at such an event to justify an increased charge? Why not charge a little more (say 50p a head) at the more 'local' events instead, rather than 3, 4, 5 quid each at the regional? Surely there's more financial 'risk' at an entry-on-the-day only event where the weather can easily swing turnout by 100+ runners.

I'm all for clubs using any profit they make in a constructive manner i.e. development-based activities. But most clubs have events planned out so far in advance that "keeping it for unexpected circumstances" doesn't really stand up as an excuse.

[SJC]

Clubs should be able to justify what they are charging for an event. If they can't do this, they shouldn't be charging such fees.

Why ?
Clubs are not in a monopoly situation and no-one is forced to go to an event if they think the charges are too high. Market forces will drive the entry fees for the different events to the appropriate levels.

Perhaps a bigger concern is events such as the British and JK where BOF appear to be involved is setting ever increasing fees.

[EddieH]

Back to the original topic regarding EOD fees as opposed to pre-entry, it seems utterly logical to me to have a differential. At least there has to be a carrot to get people to pre enter otherwise why do people pre enter?

Many people are very choosy about the weather they are prepared to run in and simply won't bother if there is a bit of rain about. Just looking at our C4 equivalents over the last 2 or three years (all eod) numbers vary from around 20 to 190. Yet we pre-print maps for a range of courses (and have I think always managed to pre-print enough maps to cover all entries). Both on cost and environmental grounds I have a question about the wisdom of this approach. I am aware of quite a few of these events that have made a loss for the organisers that have put themselves out in indifferent or bad weather for the privilege

With map printing on the Wednesday before a weekend being perfectly feasible I would argue that ALL our events could reasonably have a closing date for pre-entry on the Tuesday evening prior to the event with a higher fee for EOD.

The way it is, the more casual orienteers that pick and choose the weather are being subsidised by the sport.

With this idea committed orienteers will get great value, whilst those that want to pick to weather effectively pay a small insurance charge each time they go which leaves them comfortably better off than entering lots of events that they decide not to go to.

[RJ]

..... What RJ failed to mention was that SROC had a lower fee of £7 for adults on the less technical courses up to Light Green, with no EOD surcharge. This was obviously aimed at encouraging newcomers.....

Zokko, I didn't start this thread to have a go at SROC. It is merely a chance to discuss the whole EOD thing. However, your point above falls down when the novice adult is a perfectly capable M21 who has orienteered at local level for most of the summer, and would want to run Black.

If a Cumbrian Galoppen can cope with 300+ EOD on six courses, charging £4/£2.50 then a regional event can do the same. Having been involved in all aspects of these events, including the financial surplus setting, I am unable to see how there is justification for the high fees. Put on more events, advertise them better, keep the entry fees down.... and higher numbers will attend giving better margins.

BTW, the Cumbrian Galoppen fees will rise in 2009 because of the higher levy (£2.60 on the numbers over 250). Margins in 2008 were cut significantly. ALL EVENTS now have the same levy structure, so unless regional events start to attract 1000+ then we don't have any justification to have these high fees.

IMO regional events should be quality controlled by the region, and no L2 event should be permitted unless it meets a firm set of quality guidelines. The region should have an overall strategy and they should be responsible for the quality of the competition at that level. Were you to enter a L2 event in NWOA you should know that you are going to get a guaranteed level of quality. That is the only way that these events will attract people from further afield and produce the 'quality competitive field' that is needed.