Are there any views on 'paid' posts at orienteering events.
We Hire portaloos, Generators, PA equipment
We sometimes pay mappers,
We now sometimes seem to be paying club members to do entries and other tasks that in the past have been done as part of the normal club routine ?
Where does it stop - I am getting concerned over the rising costs of entry fees - especially JK etc .
Should we pay planners, controllers, organisers etc if we are going to pay for SI experts, entries people and others.
My own west midlands club has members who provide Mapping, SI , Website, etc etc as part of their club duties and do not wish to be paid, even if they are 'professional’s these fields.
I know there is a drive for more professionalism in the sport to make the quality of the events better. However do we gain any more quality by paying the same people who used to do these things for free ??
Your Thoughts
paid 'jobs for the boys' in Orienteering
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English language problem that not really having a word such as "boils" or "giys". I'm not a language expert but think it all stems from when English came out of Latin and no-one could be noped to work out all non-masculine words blah blah boring
On the subject matter sorry to sit on the fence but there's pros and cons.
On the plus side hopefully paying people to do the work means you get more professional results. On the minus side yes it obviously upsets people who do these things week in week out for nothing.
I know which club you're in Stodge and it's one of the biggest in the country. Smaller clubs and indeed more sparesly populated regions than WM haven't got such resources and probably need to pay mappers etc.
JK? Well if paying someone makes it a better event then do it. This year's JK was pretty good but I can pick faults. How about getting out of parking fields and Day 1 loose descriptions being different to those on the map? Hopefully "pro" organisation could make it perfect. Again on the flip side if it doesn't make it any better then it's unfair to those who given their all for nothing on previous JK's.
On the subject matter sorry to sit on the fence but there's pros and cons.
On the plus side hopefully paying people to do the work means you get more professional results. On the minus side yes it obviously upsets people who do these things week in week out for nothing.
I know which club you're in Stodge and it's one of the biggest in the country. Smaller clubs and indeed more sparesly populated regions than WM haven't got such resources and probably need to pay mappers etc.
JK? Well if paying someone makes it a better event then do it. This year's JK was pretty good but I can pick faults. How about getting out of parking fields and Day 1 loose descriptions being different to those on the map? Hopefully "pro" organisation could make it perfect. Again on the flip side if it doesn't make it any better then it's unfair to those who given their all for nothing on previous JK's.
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FatBoy - addict
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Re: paid 'jobs for the boys' in Orienteering
stodge wrote:Are there any views on 'paid' posts at orienteering events.
Where does it stop - I am getting concerned over the rising costs of entry fees - especially JK etc .
Barring corruption, it stops precisely at the point we run out of volunteers.
And as you point out, that point is moving further and further back.
Graeme
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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Re: paid 'jobs for the boys' in Orienteering
stodge wrote:We Hire portaloos, Generators, PA equipment
We sometimes pay mappers,
Fair point, but the people who provide these do so because it is their livelihood, and are providing a professional service.
Volunteers help on top of their normal day-to-day jobs.
This is quite a difficult topic, and if you did decide to pay volunteers, how much would you pay them? And would that also extend to people who serve on the committees of their respective clubs?
I think we are quite lucky in that we have people who will take on very big jobs (e.g. co-ordinating JK / British) for no personal reward and we should be very appreciative of them, and hope that everyone does their little bit to give back to the sport.
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Mike - orange
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It'll all come down to what people want from their sport, and what they want to do other than compete. Almost every area of the sport that has professionals involved, also has people who do work voluntarily. I don't think that would change if some events/clubs paid planners, organisers, controllers (although the controller is meant to be independent....). Speaking as a volunteer in all these sectors and others, I couldn't give two hoots if some people were paid, because that's usually for jobs which volunteers can't or would struggle to do because of time factors etc. A lot of professionals mix and match too. When I worked as a professional coach, that didn't stop me doing voluntary work as well, and I know plenty of professional mappers who do the same.
As for the cost side of things - well, that'll be decided by the market.
Having said all that, interesting that the assumption seems to be that pay for a professional job and you'll get a better service or product. Some of the worst maps I've run on at major events have been by professionals (and some of the best too!).
As for the cost side of things - well, that'll be decided by the market.
Having said all that, interesting that the assumption seems to be that pay for a professional job and you'll get a better service or product. Some of the worst maps I've run on at major events have been by professionals (and some of the best too!).
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awk - god
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This is a very good topic - I agree with those who say that eventually market forces will prevail - if people can't be found to do the jobs for free then they will have to be paid to do them or we have no events - the rate will be how much it costs to make them do it - perhaps if we didn't have to pay such huge BOF levies - to employ people to fill in forms to get funds to employ more people.......we might be able to spend the money saved of people who made the sport actually happen.
By the way stodge - you were meant to e-mail me your address so I could get your club's copy of Ad Hoc to you. New edition just out - if you want to get on the mailing list then pm me
By the way stodge - you were meant to e-mail me your address so I could get your club's copy of Ad Hoc to you. New edition just out - if you want to get on the mailing list then pm me
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Mrs H. - nope godmother
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It would be really interesting on the cost issues to do an index of occupations of the people competing (or their parents) and see where that fits with the age classes that are most represented ...........not that the sport is elitist or anything ......
Last edited by lough on Wed May 05, 2004 7:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
If you always do what you always did you will always get what you always got !
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lough - string
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In my opinion, for an event like the JK, British, and other high profile events, the sport needs to have the most professional presentation possible (by professional, I mean slick and well produced) to encourage the right sort of publicity and encourage young, enthusiastic newcommers to the sport (come to think of it, ALL events should be as professional as possible).
If "extras" like commentary, SI, mapping etc which enhance the event, or are necessary to the event, are best provided for by out-of-area "professionals", then it will cost, and rightly so. No-one in my region has the equipment, skill or knowledge of, for example, Crispy and his commentary, so pay him if he wants to be paid.
If volunteers who are within the region/club etc are willing and able to provide the same, or better, service for free (for example, I know of someone doing SI for all events for their club who is putting interim results up on the web during competition who would jump at the chance to do a major event), then why go paying someone else to do it? All it does is put up entry fees and put off the paying public (like my parents who didn't go to JK because of the cost).
Does paying someone to provide a service (who performs it event-in, event-out for their club) just because it is Jk etc guarantee a better or more effective service now that it is paid for? I don't think so.
The more people we pay to help at events, the fewer we will have volunteering to help.
If "extras" like commentary, SI, mapping etc which enhance the event, or are necessary to the event, are best provided for by out-of-area "professionals", then it will cost, and rightly so. No-one in my region has the equipment, skill or knowledge of, for example, Crispy and his commentary, so pay him if he wants to be paid.
If volunteers who are within the region/club etc are willing and able to provide the same, or better, service for free (for example, I know of someone doing SI for all events for their club who is putting interim results up on the web during competition who would jump at the chance to do a major event), then why go paying someone else to do it? All it does is put up entry fees and put off the paying public (like my parents who didn't go to JK because of the cost).
Does paying someone to provide a service (who performs it event-in, event-out for their club) just because it is Jk etc guarantee a better or more effective service now that it is paid for? I don't think so.
The more people we pay to help at events, the fewer we will have volunteering to help.
- Guest
it would be nice to have paid jobs for planners, organisers and controllers, who do the most work, and entries people (who do get paid)
however we don't have that much money in the sport, and want to avoid raising entry fees
however we don't have that much money in the sport, and want to avoid raising entry fees
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rob f - yellow
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perhaps if we didn't have to pay such huge BOF levies - to employ people to fill in forms to get funds to employ more people.......we might be able to spend the money saved of people who made the sport actually happen
You don't now. One of the wonderful (?!) ironies is that the form fillers (myself included when I was at BOF) are paid for by the Sports Councils, not by BOF levies.
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awk - god
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I think perhaps where the issue is comes from (wait for it) Margret Thatcher. You see she hated big industry and trade unions and the concept of job for life and set loads of stuff in motion so that a whole bunch of us me included are in some way or other self-emplolyed. So this gives us two problems:
1. We don't have as much time to volunteer for events (am supposed to be doing payslips for my staff now at 9:26 pm).
2. We're always looking for where the next pound is coming from.
Perhaps a natural progression then to pay people. The only problem is it then becomes a business and businesses aren't fair, particularly when they're not regulated. I think Stodge is being very fair-minded about discussing the topic "for the good of orienteering" but I know the subject he refers to and he should be mighty noped about it.
1. We don't have as much time to volunteer for events (am supposed to be doing payslips for my staff now at 9:26 pm).
2. We're always looking for where the next pound is coming from.
Perhaps a natural progression then to pay people. The only problem is it then becomes a business and businesses aren't fair, particularly when they're not regulated. I think Stodge is being very fair-minded about discussing the topic "for the good of orienteering" but I know the subject he refers to and he should be mighty noped about it.
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FatBoy - addict
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I think AWK's hit the nail on the head - there's no problem with paying people if they're providing a service, or a standard of service, which can't be got from volunteers. If you pay for an equal or worse service it's going to annoy the volunteers and you really need your head checking. A lot of the time the paying for people seems to just be (yet another) exercise in back covering, i.e. "we got the professionals in so there's nothing more we could have done" rather than trying to get the best.
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Ed - diehard
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I might be wrong, but surely any "payments" would have to be ex-gratia - a thank you, otherwise you'll propbabky end up with minimum wage issues, holiday entitlements, maternity and paternity leave issues and the like.
On the subject of event costs - have you seen the price of entering local 10k events - it's much more than the big O events (okay so you might get a commemorative t-shirt and a cheap medal ). There are also fewer events...maybe we should focus on fewer, but bigger, better quality events??
On the subject of event costs - have you seen the price of entering local 10k events - it's much more than the big O events (okay so you might get a commemorative t-shirt and a cheap medal ). There are also fewer events...maybe we should focus on fewer, but bigger, better quality events??
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PorkyFatBoy - diehard
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awk wrote:You don't now. One of the wonderful (?!) ironies is that the form fillers (myself included when I was at BOF) are paid for by the Sports Councils, not by BOF levies.
So where is all the levy money going?
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Mrs H. - nope godmother
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