If you want Orienteering to get in the Olympics, you have to jump through lots of hoops and take part in various things. Two of these is the World Games and World Masters Games. How can we be a major sport to be included in the Olympics if we dont take part in these? They also attract major. media, which of course, is great. The IOF, with Sue Harvey being very pro inclusion - and indeed am I!
However, the WMG has, for some reason, been down under 3 times in the last 20 years (held every 4 years). The WMG has it's own set of rules and fees. (Nick Dent WMOC Director in the recent Orienteering Australia mag says it all, very well.) WMG says all sports must charge the same and this money goes to WMG for central publicity, marketing, event registration system, etc etc. This is why the organisers needed to charge 55AUD on top - plus I am not sure WMG give them money for things like map production, etc. Also, and this I ind most interesting. WMG do not recognise the IOFs claim to an event levy, nor the AUS O Fed or regional O Fed. So this levy has to be paid by that extra 55AUD. Also, WMG would not pay for any specific sport advertising - it had to be cross-sport.
So what you are getting is an exceptionally good value for money event organised by competent orienteers (who only 2 years ago did JWOC) and it is the WMG who are the cowboys who are taking all the money and dictating where WMOC should be.
So you could lobby WMG people to try and get the games back in Europe for 2013... and for a different fees structure, but I am not sure they will really care about such a small sport which is non-Olympic anyway!
World Masters 2009 - Sydney, Australia
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Re: World Masters 2009 - Sydney, Australia
greywolf wrote:Not sure what BOF's position was on either of those points...but sure someone here can enlighten me
I can't, but possibly David (DJM) can?
Martin Ward, SYO (Chair) & SPOOK.
I'm a 1%er. Are you?
I'm a 1%er. Are you?
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Spookster - god
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Re: World Masters 2009 - Sydney, Australia
I am replying to Ravinous's interesting post which ONLY appears visible if yo click on "Reply"
Quite right Nick, WMG ARE the cowboys - you've said it all. So why at the end of all that do you say that it is a good thing to be involved with them?
I think they are a shoddy, money grabbing commercial organisation, and think Sue Harvey et al are living in cloud cuckoo land if they think that forcing us oldies to make this decision every 4 years is going to get orienteering into the Olympics
Quite right Nick, WMG ARE the cowboys - you've said it all. So why at the end of all that do you say that it is a good thing to be involved with them?
I think they are a shoddy, money grabbing commercial organisation, and think Sue Harvey et al are living in cloud cuckoo land if they think that forcing us oldies to make this decision every 4 years is going to get orienteering into the Olympics
- EddieH
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Re: World Masters 2009 - Sydney, Australia
Nick, it's true that some Olympics sports had a brief trial period in the World Games before elevation to the Olympics - inc. Triathlon & Taekwondo - but I'm not sure they were ever in the WMG (they aren't this year). Whilst participation in the World Games is worthwhile, as the IOC have said they will limit the Olympics in future it's not clear that this is actually a route into the Olympics for Orienteering.
But the World Games and the World Masters are very different for a number of reasons:
* World Games is for 4 elite per nation - World Masters is supposed to be a festival of participation - although given that there are only 600 WMOC entries to date (cf. 3500 last year) that isn't going to be the case....
* World Games is additional to the usual international calendar, World Masters is substituting for the one major international event. Can't imagine the world elite would be very impressed if they were told that this year's WOC was one individual race (2 per nation) and a mixed relay in Taiwan
* WMOC last year was great - but I find it hard to see how we wrinklies made a convincing case for Olympic status, and that will be even more diminished this year with low numbers, and IIRC the sprint event held before the WMG opening ceremony and the long distance way off in the bush somewhere
* World Games is all "minority sports" whereas at WMG Orienteering will be competing for publicity with football, athletics, swimming, rugby, tennis, cycling etc etc
btw, am not suggesting that there shouldn't be orienteering events at the WMG, or that the orienteering at Sydney & Lithgow won't be excellent...just that I can't see why WMOC has to be bundled into the WMG. WMOC last year was a huge & fantastic event, and i imagine the powers that be considered it a major success (DJM??) - however good the actual orienteering might be this October, I think WMOC itself will be significantly diminished.
But the World Games and the World Masters are very different for a number of reasons:
* World Games is for 4 elite per nation - World Masters is supposed to be a festival of participation - although given that there are only 600 WMOC entries to date (cf. 3500 last year) that isn't going to be the case....
* World Games is additional to the usual international calendar, World Masters is substituting for the one major international event. Can't imagine the world elite would be very impressed if they were told that this year's WOC was one individual race (2 per nation) and a mixed relay in Taiwan
* WMOC last year was great - but I find it hard to see how we wrinklies made a convincing case for Olympic status, and that will be even more diminished this year with low numbers, and IIRC the sprint event held before the WMG opening ceremony and the long distance way off in the bush somewhere
* World Games is all "minority sports" whereas at WMG Orienteering will be competing for publicity with football, athletics, swimming, rugby, tennis, cycling etc etc
btw, am not suggesting that there shouldn't be orienteering events at the WMG, or that the orienteering at Sydney & Lithgow won't be excellent...just that I can't see why WMOC has to be bundled into the WMG. WMOC last year was a huge & fantastic event, and i imagine the powers that be considered it a major success (DJM??) - however good the actual orienteering might be this October, I think WMOC itself will be significantly diminished.
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greywolf - addict
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Re: World Masters 2009 - Sydney, Australia
Sorry, just discovered this thread so I re-post soemthing I've added to the main discussion area today:-
Trailfinders have today released flights to Sydney at £409. Details:Singapore Airlines
Just booked my flights from Trailfinders last week at much higher prices - ouch!
selected flights between Sept 1st and Mar 31st next year
book from 9am today
http://www.trailfinders.com/latestoffers.nsf/offers/71A2A5B49C9DCDDA802575D300560D15
- DJM
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Re: World Masters 2009 - Sydney, Australia
It is true, one of the many 'criteria' for Olympic Games inclusion, is WG participation. Number of National Federations is another. I have kind of extended that to include participating in the WMG, but this may not be the case but it certainly can't detract from increasing O's profile. The IOC of course have rejected sports which do fulfil all their criteria, and accepted others which don't so they are a bit of a law to themselves I guess. Politcis plays its part I am sure. But whether we want O in the Olympics, I feel it is only good news for raising the profile of the sport to be with these games.
I have no idea who you are Greywolf, (you seem to spent more time in O chat forums than out training/in a forest ) but having personally been in Duisburg running in the last WG in 2005, it did feel infact in many ways better than the WOC I have run in and the EOCs, and indeed all the World Cups. Why? Because of the scale of the thing and the fact you were part of a Games - like the Olympics - rather than orienteering being tucked away on our own somewhere, with the media and public not really caring. WG you were actually part of something big for a change! The opening ceremony alone was HUGE, live on German national TV! There is nothing IMHO to stop WG being something 'bigger' than WOC, but that would depend on the WG allowing more nations and athletes to run. Plus, the fact it is not IOF run will probably thwart that idea. I believe, where-ever WG (and WMG) is held, the O can go on. But it should not replace WOC - except maybe in a WG year (which is no bad thing as many want to see WOC go back to every 2 years.)
I have never been to a WMG but have been to 3 WMOCs. I dont see WMOC and WMG being connected as being a bad thing on the whole. There are indeed problems of WMG being inflexible, but that is what happens when 40?? odd sports are all held in the one place and governed by one organising body. No point throwing toys out of prams because it is not 'what your used to' and the comment about WMOC being substituted this year, is a bit ridiculous. If WMG wasnt happening yet WMOC was still on in Sydney, you'd still end up with the same areas and same people running it and the same people, numbers, etc. going to it. An extra WMG fee on top of the great expense of getting to Australia is peanuts for most of the orienteers in Europe. Plus, it looks like you get quite a bit for your accreditaion fee - free travel, nice bag, HUGE televised opening/closing ceremony (don't remember getting these in Portugal), plus you are paying to be part of a HUGE event.
If WMG was in Portugal last year, at the same time as WMOC, the only difference would be you'd have paid a big accreditation fee, and you'd get all these extras. I dont think you would have got less people going.
I know Eddie is going to Oz and fair enough, a whinge at the extra money, I don't like to pay more either, but to get to a big Games like this, it costs, and you have to play by 'other sports' rules - some of which I am sure will find this fee very cheap!
Lets not get too insular and hide ourselves away all the time - Nobody is forcing anyone to go to WMG/WMOC (some say an annual WMOC is too often anyway), but I guess I will wait until my final judgement as to if WG and WMOC is a good thing. I am sure you can read about it in the DEC (or maybe OCT??) issue of CompassSport
Certainly, WG needs to be spread more around the globe - I guess we can lobby our UK WMG officials for that.
That's more time spent not finishing the next mag....
I have no idea who you are Greywolf, (you seem to spent more time in O chat forums than out training/in a forest ) but having personally been in Duisburg running in the last WG in 2005, it did feel infact in many ways better than the WOC I have run in and the EOCs, and indeed all the World Cups. Why? Because of the scale of the thing and the fact you were part of a Games - like the Olympics - rather than orienteering being tucked away on our own somewhere, with the media and public not really caring. WG you were actually part of something big for a change! The opening ceremony alone was HUGE, live on German national TV! There is nothing IMHO to stop WG being something 'bigger' than WOC, but that would depend on the WG allowing more nations and athletes to run. Plus, the fact it is not IOF run will probably thwart that idea. I believe, where-ever WG (and WMG) is held, the O can go on. But it should not replace WOC - except maybe in a WG year (which is no bad thing as many want to see WOC go back to every 2 years.)
I have never been to a WMG but have been to 3 WMOCs. I dont see WMOC and WMG being connected as being a bad thing on the whole. There are indeed problems of WMG being inflexible, but that is what happens when 40?? odd sports are all held in the one place and governed by one organising body. No point throwing toys out of prams because it is not 'what your used to' and the comment about WMOC being substituted this year, is a bit ridiculous. If WMG wasnt happening yet WMOC was still on in Sydney, you'd still end up with the same areas and same people running it and the same people, numbers, etc. going to it. An extra WMG fee on top of the great expense of getting to Australia is peanuts for most of the orienteers in Europe. Plus, it looks like you get quite a bit for your accreditaion fee - free travel, nice bag, HUGE televised opening/closing ceremony (don't remember getting these in Portugal), plus you are paying to be part of a HUGE event.
If WMG was in Portugal last year, at the same time as WMOC, the only difference would be you'd have paid a big accreditation fee, and you'd get all these extras. I dont think you would have got less people going.
I know Eddie is going to Oz and fair enough, a whinge at the extra money, I don't like to pay more either, but to get to a big Games like this, it costs, and you have to play by 'other sports' rules - some of which I am sure will find this fee very cheap!
Lets not get too insular and hide ourselves away all the time - Nobody is forcing anyone to go to WMG/WMOC (some say an annual WMOC is too often anyway), but I guess I will wait until my final judgement as to if WG and WMOC is a good thing. I am sure you can read about it in the DEC (or maybe OCT??) issue of CompassSport
Certainly, WG needs to be spread more around the globe - I guess we can lobby our UK WMG officials for that.
That's more time spent not finishing the next mag....
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Ravinous - light green
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Re: World Masters 2009 - Sydney, Australia
I agree that O should be at the WG and even at WMG, but not that WMG should automatically become WMOC - the only reason AFAICS that WMOC is in Australia is because the IOF has decided that it will be combined with (or be substituted by, it's the same thing) WMG.
Compare athletics - which is in WMG, indeed is one of the major sports there, but the 2009 World Masters Athletics Champs are in Lahti
http://english.wma2009.org/
Still I'm sure those who can afford (time/money) to go will have a lovely time
and the rest of us can save up for Switzerland - only 400-ish days to go
And yes i wish i did spend more time in the forest...
Compare athletics - which is in WMG, indeed is one of the major sports there, but the 2009 World Masters Athletics Champs are in Lahti
http://english.wma2009.org/
Still I'm sure those who can afford (time/money) to go will have a lovely time
and the rest of us can save up for Switzerland - only 400-ish days to go
And yes i wish i did spend more time in the forest...
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greywolf - addict
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Re: World Masters 2009 - Sydney, Australia
If you haven't WMOC entered yet and intend to go - I've just noticed the entries close tomorrow!
hop fat boy, hop!
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madmike - guru
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Re: World Masters 2009 - Sydney, Australia
it looks like there will be about 100 Britains at the WMOC in Australia.... and representing GBR...
surely that justifies British Orienteering (federation) offering some support or acknowledgement, and at least a team kit for all of us to wear out there?
They will afterall be getting some publicity - I know i will be getting some local publicity, and would have liked to show how supportive both the local club, and British Orienteering are...
Although the press may be interested in hearing how British Orienteering (federation) don't support the 'grass-roots' orienteer, and concentrate on their dozen or so 'elite' members.
surely that justifies British Orienteering (federation) offering some support or acknowledgement, and at least a team kit for all of us to wear out there?
They will afterall be getting some publicity - I know i will be getting some local publicity, and would have liked to show how supportive both the local club, and British Orienteering are...
Although the press may be interested in hearing how British Orienteering (federation) don't support the 'grass-roots' orienteer, and concentrate on their dozen or so 'elite' members.
- LostOldTimer
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Re: World Masters 2009 - Sydney, Australia
Over the years I have tried to arrange some kit for GB people entering WMOC... a standard T Shirt or something. It has never really worked as there was never a great deal of interest in it.
I will try again for WMOC 2010 in Switzerland... keep your eye on the SOT webpages:
http://scottishotours.info/1009_14.html
I will try again for WMOC 2010 in Switzerland... keep your eye on the SOT webpages:
http://scottishotours.info/1009_14.html
Go orienteering in Lithuania......... best in the world:)
Real Name - Gross
http://www.scottishotours.info
Real Name - Gross
http://www.scottishotours.info
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Gross - god
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Re: World Masters 2009 - Sydney, Australia
I only just saw this post so apologize for posting late.
I was involved in organizing the WMOC/WMG in Canada in 2005 and have the following insights which may be relevent:
The IOF is very keen to show that orienteering can be incorporated into a major international games to support their aim of becoming an Olympic sport, therefore they strongly support the inclusion of O in the games.
If the WMG is not combined with the WMOC (i.e. run as a separate event) particpation will be very low, especially from overseas competitors. I imagine very few UK orienteers would be travelling to Aus if a separate WMOC had already been held in Europe this year. This would mean that the first objective would not be met. It would also bring the financial viability of event into question (especially in a country where O is a relatively minor sport).
The WMG philosphy is very much against any 'national' spirit, at the opening ceremonies atheletes all parade together. This may explain why national orienteering suits etc are not much in evidence and why BOF don't provide any funding.
If you don't like the situation this year, I would suggest either lobbying cities in your country to bid to host future WMGs or lobbying the IOF to drop the idea of becoming an Olympic sport.
I think that most people who took part in the event in Canada did appeciate it being held as part of the WMG.
I was involved in organizing the WMOC/WMG in Canada in 2005 and have the following insights which may be relevent:
The IOF is very keen to show that orienteering can be incorporated into a major international games to support their aim of becoming an Olympic sport, therefore they strongly support the inclusion of O in the games.
If the WMG is not combined with the WMOC (i.e. run as a separate event) particpation will be very low, especially from overseas competitors. I imagine very few UK orienteers would be travelling to Aus if a separate WMOC had already been held in Europe this year. This would mean that the first objective would not be met. It would also bring the financial viability of event into question (especially in a country where O is a relatively minor sport).
The WMG philosphy is very much against any 'national' spirit, at the opening ceremonies atheletes all parade together. This may explain why national orienteering suits etc are not much in evidence and why BOF don't provide any funding.
If you don't like the situation this year, I would suggest either lobbying cities in your country to bid to host future WMGs or lobbying the IOF to drop the idea of becoming an Olympic sport.
I think that most people who took part in the event in Canada did appeciate it being held as part of the WMG.
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jondub - string
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Re: World Masters 2009 - Sydney, Australia
Regarding the discussion about money for WMOC, speaking as someone who gave a lot of my time in the early days (1974 - 1980) to voluntary mapping hoping to keep O a cheap sport, I bitterly resent the incredible amount of money competitiors are expected to pay to enter WMOC.
Since 1980 I've been shouted at for indicating I'd be claiming expenses for helping with events when I was desperately short of money, and for not doing any more voluntary mapping (the latter being when I was shouted at by the SN chairman, I just dont see why cowboy mappers should get paid good money to come fly down and make maps that are wrong within 15 miles of where I live, then locals with mapping skills are expected to do unpaid work to produce corrected versions), if you analyse it over the whole of my life I've done about 4 hours of voluntary work for the O scene for every event I've competed in) in short my relationship with the sport has been characterised by arguments over money chiefly because once an individual has got involved in mapping the o community regards that person as a mapper for the rest of his life and expects him to go on doing the hard work that nobody else will do to keep the sport cheap and there was indeed a time when we did exactly that for exactly that reason, because we believed in keeping O a CHEAP SPORT
It just makes our efforts futile when we see money just being frittered away, or handed over to the WMG organisation, or paying inflated hotel prices because the games is on ... etc.
There is a slim chance that Sue Harvey and the others may succeed in getting O into the olympics and having it in the WMG is a helpful intermediate stage, but my money is that it will just waste money and alienate the IOF cttees from the orienteers who go to events and pay for them, IMO 'cloud cukoo' isnt putting it too strongly, but grumbling on the internet isnt going to do much, actions speak louder than words, I think it's a pity the Ossies didnt take matters into their own hands eg by refusing to organise it, I just hadnt the heart to tell them whatI really thought when I met some of them in Portugal. I hope they wont lose money if they only get a few hundred entries and I wish the organisers and runners all the very best luck,
Simon Beck
PS I agree the final in portugal was great but the qualifiers??? I didnt hear anything other than grumbles it was too easy. I stayed on after that event and run in some of the forest that werent used for WMOC, far better!
Since 1980 I've been shouted at for indicating I'd be claiming expenses for helping with events when I was desperately short of money, and for not doing any more voluntary mapping (the latter being when I was shouted at by the SN chairman, I just dont see why cowboy mappers should get paid good money to come fly down and make maps that are wrong within 15 miles of where I live, then locals with mapping skills are expected to do unpaid work to produce corrected versions), if you analyse it over the whole of my life I've done about 4 hours of voluntary work for the O scene for every event I've competed in) in short my relationship with the sport has been characterised by arguments over money chiefly because once an individual has got involved in mapping the o community regards that person as a mapper for the rest of his life and expects him to go on doing the hard work that nobody else will do to keep the sport cheap and there was indeed a time when we did exactly that for exactly that reason, because we believed in keeping O a CHEAP SPORT
It just makes our efforts futile when we see money just being frittered away, or handed over to the WMG organisation, or paying inflated hotel prices because the games is on ... etc.
There is a slim chance that Sue Harvey and the others may succeed in getting O into the olympics and having it in the WMG is a helpful intermediate stage, but my money is that it will just waste money and alienate the IOF cttees from the orienteers who go to events and pay for them, IMO 'cloud cukoo' isnt putting it too strongly, but grumbling on the internet isnt going to do much, actions speak louder than words, I think it's a pity the Ossies didnt take matters into their own hands eg by refusing to organise it, I just hadnt the heart to tell them whatI really thought when I met some of them in Portugal. I hope they wont lose money if they only get a few hundred entries and I wish the organisers and runners all the very best luck,
Simon Beck
PS I agree the final in portugal was great but the qualifiers??? I didnt hear anything other than grumbles it was too easy. I stayed on after that event and run in some of the forest that werent used for WMOC, far better!
- simonbeck8848
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Re: World Masters 2009 - Sydney, Australia
Start lists are here and will be on the WMOC site seen.
- PG
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Re: World Masters 2009 - Sydney, Australia
I can't wait to get to Sydney - I have already packed my breathing mask...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-p ... 270104.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-p ... 270104.stm
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SJ - blue
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Re: World Masters 2009 - Sydney, Australia
SJ,
you seemed to have the camera out quite a lot, have you by any chance put your photo's online anywhere?
Mike
you seemed to have the camera out quite a lot, have you by any chance put your photo's online anywhere?
Mike
hop fat boy, hop!
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madmike - guru
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