Pre-Entry Info

[greywolf]

Following the thread on the ridiculously early (and now amended) closing date for BEOC / FCC final, a couple of questions about pre-entry info:

Why isn't it possible for event details (e.g the BEOC weekend, Scottish Champs) to have a list of course lengths/climb etc? Do they not know?? would like to think they have done most of the planning and controlling by now and any changes will be relatively minor.

And (e.g. Graythwaite) what's the point of offering Early / Middle /Late starts for online entry if you don't say WHEN the start blocks are?

[RJ]

......And (e.g. Graythwaite) what's the point of offering Early / Middle /Late starts for online entry if you don't say WHEN the start blocks are?

greywolf.... I think you are being just a tad pedantic here! Normal start times are from 10.30 to say, 12.30. For a big event, maybe 10.00 to 13.00. I hardly think early, middle and late 'blocks' is too difficult to work out!! It's not one of the great secrets of the sport!

[graeme]

Rather than marking snipey comments, you could try finding out when the start blocks are for Greythwaite. Then you could either provide some useful information, or (more likely) you would actually understand the question.

If you have to travel 3 hours to an event, knowing when the start block can help a lot with travel i.e. can I do this in a day? In the past, I've asked for late starts at BOC, and been allocated both 10:30 and 15:00. This information is available to the organisers way in advance (unlike course lengths).

[greywolf]

Normal start times are from 10.30 to say, 12.30. For a big event, maybe 10.00 to 13.00.

Really??

BEOC weekend Saturday: Start Times: 12.00 – 13.00 for FCC Finalists (non qualifiers from 11.30), 13.15 – 15.30 for all other courses
BEOC weekend Sunday: Starts: BEOC and FCC from 9.30 to 13.30 with the National etc courses from 10.00 - 13.30
Scottish Champs: Start times will be between 12.30 pm and 3.30 pm, in three start blocks

It's not one of the great secrets of the sport!

But why does it have to be a secret at all? How difficult is it to put an extra line in the event flyer?

[lakesorunner]

Starts for Graythwaite are 10:30-12:30. A polite question would normally do the trick...

It's funny, but after orienteering for 30 years, I can't remember more than a couple of events on a Sunday which have had start times radically different...

As for what Early, Middle and Late are - it all depends on how many want a middle/late slot...

[RJ]

....BEOC weekend Saturday: Start Times: 12.00 – 13.00 for FCC Finalists (non qualifiers from 11.30), 13.15 – 15.30 for all other courses
BEOC weekend Sunday: Starts: BEOC and FCC from 9.30 to 13.30 with the National etc courses from 10.00 - 13.30

Graythwaite is a SUNDAY event, and is a REGIONAL event, and will have above average entry for a Regional since the terrain is so good. Your times above are exactly what I said.

Sorry would have been the better response.

[Scott]

If you have to travel 3 hours to an event, knowing when the start block can help a lot with travel i.e. can I do this in a day? In the past, I've asked for late starts at BOC, and been allocated both 10:30 and 15:00. This information is available to the organisers way in advance (unlike course lengths).

Not necessarily. There's no reason not to say "starts will be 10.30-13.00" (or whatever) - and failing to do so is a bit silly - but it'd be a very brave organiser who would commit to saying "early starts 10.30-11.20, middle starts 11.20-12.10, late starts 12.10-13.00", which seems like what greywolf was asking for in his first post. Doing that, you rather leave yourself in the lurch when 80% of the entrants request a late start - believe me, it happens...

[EddieH]

Having taken entries for Moray Mix with pre-published later than normal starts for Saturday, (and earlier than normal on Sunday to finish before too much traffic build up)
it is clear that many people don't read the information.

I had numerous "late" applications that actually wanted early once they discovered they were starting at 14.00. I even had one "late" start applicant that wanted to start before the first start

You know who you were

[Scott]

It's funny, but after orienteering for 30 years, I can't remember more than a couple of events on a Sunday which have had start times radically different...

Aye, but for those who haven't been orienteering for 30 years, treating the start times as some sort of state secret isn't particularly helpful. God forbid anyone should think about entering their first regional event .

Seriously: there's a "start times" box on the BOF fixtures list. Typing in "10.30-13.00" (or whatever) isn't that much more effort than typing "TBC".

[greywolf]

There's no reason not to say "starts will be 10.30-13.00" (or whatever) - and failing to do so is a bit silly - but it'd be a very brave organiser who would commit to saying "early starts 10.30-11.20, middle starts 11.20-12.10, late starts 12.10-13.00", which seems like what greywolf was asking for in his first post.

Apologies for my lack of clarity - Yes, I wouldn't expect organisers to define the individual start blocks, just the overall start window...

Lakesorunner - the (badly phrased) question wasn't "when are the starts at Graythwaite?" but "Why isn't the start window given in the event info?". An email did sort the first question... the second is more general and Graythwaite was just the example to hand..

Maybe it has been more or less the same for 30 years, but why assume that everyone else has been orienteering non-stop for 30 years? or perhaps that's the problem, almost the only ones left are those who've been doing it for 30 years....

[graeme]

but it'd be a very brave organiser who would commit to saying "early starts 10.30-11.20, middle starts 11.20-12.10, late starts 12.10-13.00", which seems like what greywolf was asking for in his first post.

That would indeed be a silly request. Since greywolf isn't usually silly, I assumed he was asking the sensible question.

Thanks to lakesorunner for the prompt response. Starts in Scotland are usually later, making daytrips more plausible (FWIW, that's why I don't bother with most Lakes events).

[Scott]

greywolf isn't usually silly

Hmpf.

[RJ]

It is possible with oentries to publish the start times as the entries come in, and to give people what they want. Those who enter soonest will get the start time of their choice. It is obvious as the entry list fills just which start times are available.

That system will be used for the WCOC Muncaster regional event on May 17. You can enter that event now if you wish.

[andy]

It is possible with oentries to publish the start times as the entries come in, and to give people what they want. Those who enter soonest will get the start time of their choice. It is obvious as the entry list fills just which start times are available.

excellent way to do it. if you don't get in in time then the organiser can legitimately tell you where to go

[Duncan]

Some interesting background from JK 2009.

Day 1 (Friday sprint race) is one of those events where the start time range is non-standard. Plus its a big event, some people are travelling a long way, so they want to know when the start time range is. Carelessly we didn't say on the pre-event publicitiy, and we should have done. But after a few enquiries a few months ago we put a notice on the website, the enquires stopped and all seemed well.....

... until the start times are posted, and the requests for changes come rolling in. There have been emails from nearly 80 separate people to the entries secretary in the last week, the vast majority asking for changes to start times on day 1. A good proportion are people who just haven't bothered to think about their travel arrangements and whether they could make the start time they have requested - not sure what can you do [as event organisers] to prevent this?

The other main problem is what happens on elite courses that are seeded: what you request as a start time preference may make no difference - it is the seeding that takes precedence. As a result you get for example two people planning to travel together and both requesting an early start, but if one of them is on elite and "good" they are given a late start, whilst the other gets an early start as per their preference - cue email to the entries secretary asking to change the start times to be closer together.

Lessons to be learnt: publish your range of start times in the pre-event publicity and for big events be very clear about how start times are allocated on seeded / elite courses. It would also be good to have an entries system that permits people to change start times online (for a fee?) subject to availability of spare slots (except on courses that have been seeded, and with some cunning to stop people moving their start to be just in front of a fast person that they can follow....). Bit like choosing your seat on an aeroplane.