Perhaps slightly of subject now but the best format for ensuring courses for all at informals is score events (ensuring sufficient easy and medium controls). I'm not biased either cos I actually hate score events as I find they distract the mind from the navigation.
Perhaps slightly hard-line but those who "enter" online get overprinted maps, others have to copy (included their run time of course). With a lot of clubs having their own lasers and using them for the lower key events the closing "date" could be fairly close to the mark e.g. Friday night before the Sunday - most people will know by then if they're going or not. You'd have to have telelphone entries (ansaphone?) also though cos as alien as a thought as it is not everyone is on the net.
CC or badge?
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Scores are good - I love scores - perhaps I'm better at thinking than running ( God I hope so, I'm useless at running). Got to be a good low-key format with something for everyone - added benefit - kids and novices can try a few harder controls along the way by way of training. Good call
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Mrs H. - nope godmother
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pasta and cheese wrote:EOD... Yeah big problem as you say.
Not really. You can just print loads of maps from OCAD. Too many clubs get hung up about the "cost of a map" and the "waste of money" if they aren't used. This comes from a bad accountancy model (value of map = cost of mapping+printing / number of maps instead of marginal cost). Extra maps are useful anyway, reused as notepaper, with event ads on the back, donations to local schools, clubs etc etc.
The trouble with colour codeds is they've come to be regarded as events on the cheap - with poor areas, master maps, novice planning, out of date maps etc. There's no reason why they shouldn't be good, and many are, but unless people know ahead of time that a CC will be quality, some wont go and the field will be weakened.
And here's nothing wrong with events using poor areas, novice planning, and out of date maps if you dont travel miles to do them and know what to expect.
Scores are good - I love scores
Scores are evil - hate the things - too much advantage on having been to an area before.
Except... There are two types of score. One is where the controls are dispersed across the area, another is where there's an obvious route to follow with options to skip bits if its too far. the latter is a good way of solving the overprinting/cc problem...
Just print one course, then run.
Black - controls 1-27
Brown 1-10 14-27
Blue 1-9 12-16 20-27
Green 1-16 26-27
etc
(Like many good ideas, I've seen this done/done this abroad but never in the UK)
Graeme
Graeme
Last edited by graeme on Thu Apr 29, 2004 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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All this talk has made me think of the joys of a brown on lossie in a few weeks!
"Poor is the student who does not surpass his master" - Leonardo Da Vinci
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pasta and cheese - orange
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EOD on the day shouldnt be a problem any more because maps can be printed on demand at the event. Thats what happened at the JK training day. This means people will always be able get a map for the course they want to run and there shouldnt be much waste.
it's all fun
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m - nope young team
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i personally prefer CC's to badge events as you do get more competition. i've done a few m21L's recently where there's only been a couple of people within 15mins of the winner, but with the m35l winner posting similar speeds. however, as has already been mentioned, CC's invariably don't have an m21L standard course. the last few brown courses i've run have been over with before i've even reached an hour. i would definitely welcome a 'blacker than black' course. having been to sweden a couple of times and run m21L, they usually have winning times of 90mins (i would be taking a lot longer), whereas in britain it is only at the major events where winning times would be even close to that - we need to toughen ourselves up!
The reward of a thing well done is to have done it.
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Supersaint - team nopesport
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too many ideas for me to write an all-encompassing rational argument, but here are some things, according to me...
from scratch.
there should be different sorts of events: evening events are often top fun and so on, but whatever format they are (and they have many fantastic and often very simple formats), they remain, to me, less serious than the other sort. i am therefore not talking about evening events here, but rather something else (whichever name it might have, and whatever the courses might be called).
there are too many courses at badge events at the moment (i will go and write this under the other thread). this is not necessarily the same thing as there are too many age classes. no reason why at least 20, 21 and 35 can't all run the same courses at least the vast majority of the time.
at the same time, there are too few (ie none) long, easy courses.
turning up to the start at a random time and starting whenever is bad. start list please. having a combination, ie start list which people use as a guideline and then turn up and start when they want is even worse.
overprinted maps, yes. pre-entry, yes. no reason why people can't be a bit organised about this sort of thing.
so the final point then is whether people should be allowed to choose from a range of courses on offer, or whether they should be dictated to on the grounds of age and sex. and for a first draft of an idea, yeah, there ought to be some sort of choice of courses available (i think the current spectrum of colour-coded courses is a good one, and can cater for the vast majority of occasions, were black and another unspecified colour at >10k and td3 (it gradually became called purple by mdoc after they stopped calling things by their letter-and-number codes during the o-choice period) included), and that within these cses, the Prizes can go out to the people in whichever of the (reduced number of) age categories took the honours on that occasion.
from scratch.
there should be different sorts of events: evening events are often top fun and so on, but whatever format they are (and they have many fantastic and often very simple formats), they remain, to me, less serious than the other sort. i am therefore not talking about evening events here, but rather something else (whichever name it might have, and whatever the courses might be called).
there are too many courses at badge events at the moment (i will go and write this under the other thread). this is not necessarily the same thing as there are too many age classes. no reason why at least 20, 21 and 35 can't all run the same courses at least the vast majority of the time.
at the same time, there are too few (ie none) long, easy courses.
turning up to the start at a random time and starting whenever is bad. start list please. having a combination, ie start list which people use as a guideline and then turn up and start when they want is even worse.
overprinted maps, yes. pre-entry, yes. no reason why people can't be a bit organised about this sort of thing.
so the final point then is whether people should be allowed to choose from a range of courses on offer, or whether they should be dictated to on the grounds of age and sex. and for a first draft of an idea, yeah, there ought to be some sort of choice of courses available (i think the current spectrum of colour-coded courses is a good one, and can cater for the vast majority of occasions, were black and another unspecified colour at >10k and td3 (it gradually became called purple by mdoc after they stopped calling things by their letter-and-number codes during the o-choice period) included), and that within these cses, the Prizes can go out to the people in whichever of the (reduced number of) age categories took the honours on that occasion.
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ic - yellow
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Hmm, but what you've all failed to notice so far is that many areas aren't suitable for brown courses let alone black. It's all very well saying you want 90 min highly technical courses, but there's very little scope for this e.g. in the south of england unless you just did a 20km cross country run...perhaps on a black and white map/no paths/map memory to make it harder? I'm sure planners make the most of the areas, so it's a bit academic saying you want more technical courses in some cases...?
Pippa
Pippa
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Pippa wrote:Hmm, but what you've all failed to notice so far is that many areas aren't suitable for brown courses let alone black. It's all very well saying you want 90 min highly technical courses, but there's very little scope for this e.g. in the south of england unless you just did a 20km cross country run...perhaps on a black and white map/no paths/map memory to make it harder? I'm sure planners make the most of the areas, so it's a bit academic saying you want more technical courses in some cases...?
Pippa
Hmmm, you misunderstand me. I said that what I enjoy is a slightly longer, more technical course than the average brown. I didn't say I expect one, or that it would always be possible to have one - I was considering the ideal.
But you're right, and that's why I'm rarely to be found in the south of england.
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Ed - diehard
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Although of the 2 black courses i have ever run, both have been in the south, and neither were on terrain which could be classed as technical compared to somewhere like the Lake's (Heyshott & Ambersham and Esher Commons are the 2 i've done). The one on Esher was a rather large effort, and the standard was pretty high. 85min winning time, and over 50 people on the course as well.
The reward of a thing well done is to have done it.
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Supersaint - team nopesport
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I only seem to find myself running at two sorts of events regualarly. Large events eg Nationals / UK Cup and Night events. If neither of these is avalible on the weekend, I look to do other things eg fell races etc. If there is nothing else then I will come back to doing a local Badge or CC event.
I do the big events because there will be good compotition and there should be good chalenging courses. I do night events because they are always that bit more challenging and I realy enjoy them.
The western night league runs on a 1 hour score format, with a handicap as well as overall scoring which makes it competative even with a limited number of people. There are 10 plus events a year, too many on easier areas but every now and then we get some great areas like Merther Moughr, Stock hill or one of the SWOC moorland 1000+ pits on the map areas.
ifor
I do the big events because there will be good compotition and there should be good chalenging courses. I do night events because they are always that bit more challenging and I realy enjoy them.
The western night league runs on a 1 hour score format, with a handicap as well as overall scoring which makes it competative even with a limited number of people. There are 10 plus events a year, too many on easier areas but every now and then we get some great areas like Merther Moughr, Stock hill or one of the SWOC moorland 1000+ pits on the map areas.
ifor
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ifor - brown
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ifor wrote:The western night league runs on a 1 hour score format, with a handicap as well as overall scoring which makes it competative even with a limited number of people.
ifor
Yeah I was going to say about the Western Night League - another of my favourite series of events - where the handicap is so fine tuned that Ifor has to slug it out with his mother on a regular basis - and the rest of us seldom get a look in I can't wait for next year when I'll be a W50
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Mrs H. - nope godmother
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its been said before, somewhere in another topic, long easyier courses are definately needed where possible, a much better option for getting people from xc etc backgrounds into orienteering.
when starting out they'll look at the course length of a brown and want to go out on that and possibly have a terrible time, if they go out on an orange or easier they'd have been better going out for a long training run. Something long and easy would be a much better starting point for older newcomers to the sport who are used to longer distance races.
when starting out they'll look at the course length of a brown and want to go out on that and possibly have a terrible time, if they go out on an orange or easier they'd have been better going out for a long training run. Something long and easy would be a much better starting point for older newcomers to the sport who are used to longer distance races.
“Success is 99% failure� -- Soichiro Honda
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brooner - [nope] cartel
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pasta and cheese wrote:The white rose will be interesting an at only 11 courses it will be good to see what the punters make of it.
Don't the SOL events use 11 courses for their badge events, perhaps not with the exact TD/length stated by Mrs H - what do people who've experienced them think of the system?
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distracted - addict
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