Is it just me or does anyone else prefer CC to badge?
I mean
1) you get to choose whihc course you do based on ability.
2) I find that most browns are more competitive than an M21 as lots of the more mature runners who usually run brown do an more mature age class at badge events. It is not that M21's are easier to win than browns. But beacuase of the small field on M21 often my placing doesn't mean anything to me. On a brown there will be more people running (maybe over 35/under20) who i will look to see if i've matched thier time etc etc.
3) Often EOD which is good for me.
4) Often sport ident and relaxed start times so you just turn up at the start and run when your ready.
4) Nowadays they also tend to have premarked maps. (this is the only reason why i used to prefer badge events)
CC will never replace badge and badge are good in big nationals and UK cup etc.
Anyone else agree? or do you all prefer the age classes?
CC or badge?
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CC or badge?
"Poor is the student who does not surpass his master" - Leonardo Da Vinci
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pasta and cheese - orange
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I prefer events which are close by to events that are further away.
I prefer events on detailed, technical areas with a sparse or non-existant network of line features.
I prefer courses which are well planned and make me think the whole way.
I really don't care whether an event is a badge (sorry, regional) or colour-coded, or even national or local - given the choice I'll go to the one that I think will be most enjoyable, and I look forward to the day when I don't feel the need to travel to the other end of the country for an event which I know is unlikely to be.
I prefer events on detailed, technical areas with a sparse or non-existant network of line features.
I prefer courses which are well planned and make me think the whole way.
I really don't care whether an event is a badge (sorry, regional) or colour-coded, or even national or local - given the choice I'll go to the one that I think will be most enjoyable, and I look forward to the day when I don't feel the need to travel to the other end of the country for an event which I know is unlikely to be.
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Ed - diehard
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Good topic I like a green course because it is most usually the distance I would prefer to run. W45L is often too long - especially at multi day events and W45S is frequently too short - but I do better at them and am very vain
CC are also a lot cheaper - especially when you have a family of 5 orienteers - with the wide spread use of SI and over printed maps Cc has gtot to represent more sport for your money.
I notice that the White Rose is going ageless for adults - ie enter the course you want but it has to be a specific one if you want to stand a chance of winning a lovely mug
CC are also a lot cheaper - especially when you have a family of 5 orienteers - with the wide spread use of SI and over printed maps Cc has gtot to represent more sport for your money.
I notice that the White Rose is going ageless for adults - ie enter the course you want but it has to be a specific one if you want to stand a chance of winning a lovely mug
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Mrs H. - nope godmother
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Ed's important point i seem to have neglected in my opener.
However...
Unlike ed, I do care that a event is badge or CC!
I like good courses on good areas, but would prefer them to be cc than badge. (except for big events UK cup, champs, nationals etc)
I like running against local club members (and often friends) in some good areas. Most of the people i used to pitch myself against in the NE were 40+. "Good" areas tended to be saved for the (what is percieved as) "better badge events". whilst these badge events were enjoyable, after the run there is not the same competetion, comparisons and banter.
At badge evenst the people who all usually do brown now do 4 or 5 different courses.
More of those colour codeds please.
However...
Unlike ed, I do care that a event is badge or CC!
I like good courses on good areas, but would prefer them to be cc than badge. (except for big events UK cup, champs, nationals etc)
I like running against local club members (and often friends) in some good areas. Most of the people i used to pitch myself against in the NE were 40+. "Good" areas tended to be saved for the (what is percieved as) "better badge events". whilst these badge events were enjoyable, after the run there is not the same competetion, comparisons and banter.
At badge evenst the people who all usually do brown now do 4 or 5 different courses.
More of those colour codeds please.
"Poor is the student who does not surpass his master" - Leonardo Da Vinci
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pasta and cheese - orange
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Like your stuff Mrs H,
I belelive that the "chosing which course to run based on ability not age class" approach was the thinking behind the recent(ish) changes to the junior badge classes.
I prefer colour codeds and they would seem to be easier to organise/plan etc.
All events colour coded except:
UK cup, FCC, and a simular competition for 35/40+
yearly regional champs
British
JK
Maybe keep nationals?
But what about the ranking scheme i hear you cry. All ranked using the method used at the moment but rather than time use mins/k .
This allows all competetors to compare ranking. IE M35 can look at where he would be on M21 quite accurately. (this idea was explored by someone 6 years ago and was published in a BOF newsletter - anyone know any more?)
There would be weighting for the larger events above. Only the Green, Blue, Brown would count as they are meant to be the same technical diff. there could be a slight weighting for the longer courses as well.
That ranking thing is just an aside...
Seriously more colour codeds would not have a detrimental effect on my level of enjoyment. What about yours?
As Ed says well planned events on good areas are the key. And colour codeds are easier to plan/ organise which would mean less time and i guess less expense.
Anyways there's some ideas,
Colour codeds rock. Rant over.
I belelive that the "chosing which course to run based on ability not age class" approach was the thinking behind the recent(ish) changes to the junior badge classes.
I prefer colour codeds and they would seem to be easier to organise/plan etc.
All events colour coded except:
UK cup, FCC, and a simular competition for 35/40+
yearly regional champs
British
JK
Maybe keep nationals?
But what about the ranking scheme i hear you cry. All ranked using the method used at the moment but rather than time use mins/k .
This allows all competetors to compare ranking. IE M35 can look at where he would be on M21 quite accurately. (this idea was explored by someone 6 years ago and was published in a BOF newsletter - anyone know any more?)
There would be weighting for the larger events above. Only the Green, Blue, Brown would count as they are meant to be the same technical diff. there could be a slight weighting for the longer courses as well.
That ranking thing is just an aside...
Seriously more colour codeds would not have a detrimental effect on my level of enjoyment. What about yours?
As Ed says well planned events on good areas are the key. And colour codeds are easier to plan/ organise which would mean less time and i guess less expense.
Anyways there's some ideas,
Colour codeds rock. Rant over.
Last edited by pasta and cheese on Thu Apr 29, 2004 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Poor is the student who does not surpass his master" - Leonardo Da Vinci
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pasta and cheese - orange
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CC is good as you run appropriate to your skill level. We've seen finally the gap below 21S filled for the many 21's who aren't fit enough to run even short but is this barking up the wrong tree?
I'd like to see more Blacks though. After three runs of about 2 hours at Simonside and JK on 21L a Brown course at 75 mins becomes "is that it?" However if it becomes only M21's who run Blacks we might as well just have badge events.
I also race slalom canoes where they operate a division system. We could do a similar thing such that if you have 3 runs above a certain level on say Green you're obliged to run Blue. If you do badly on Blue you get to go down to Green. Just a thought.
I'd like to see more Blacks though. After three runs of about 2 hours at Simonside and JK on 21L a Brown course at 75 mins becomes "is that it?" However if it becomes only M21's who run Blacks we might as well just have badge events.
I also race slalom canoes where they operate a division system. We could do a similar thing such that if you have 3 runs above a certain level on say Green you're obliged to run Blue. If you do badly on Blue you get to go down to Green. Just a thought.
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FatBoy - addict
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As a beginner the difference between an orange course (equivalent) and M17B was too great and put me off the sport. Now I'm running the same courses as M35S and sometimes I win, (due to lack of competition), even though it's only good enough for a Bronze badge. Still get beaten by 6 guys old enough to be my dad, running the same course as M55L
When I was introduced to the sport, badge always had a kudos, that they were tougher and a truer test of your ability. Now I judge my performance against the usual suspects that I see each weekend.
As for course choice, local galoppen rules means I run brown most of the time, either for the competition or as practice, whereas I'd rather run blue, roughly the same as the M35S distance.
I think I prefer cc's as I always have a post-badge event depression when I didn't make the Silver time
When I was introduced to the sport, badge always had a kudos, that they were tougher and a truer test of your ability. Now I judge my performance against the usual suspects that I see each weekend.
As for course choice, local galoppen rules means I run brown most of the time, either for the competition or as practice, whereas I'd rather run blue, roughly the same as the M35S distance.
I think I prefer cc's as I always have a post-badge event depression when I didn't make the Silver time
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PorkyFatBoy - diehard
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Colour-codeds are easier to organise (a) because there are fewer courses and (b) because it's EOD rather than pre-entry.
The problem with (a) is that there is an insufficient range of courses to keep everyone happy - e.g. most of the time I'd consider about 70 minutes a decent length of time to be out orienteering (not too short considering the time spent travelling, not too long that it just becomes a trial), but I can't remember when a colour-coded last kept me occupied for over an hour. To do so would require a black course (or even a dark black course), or a return to how Cumbrian Galoppens used to be planned (i.e. we've got an area, it's tough, hilly, technical and large so lets use all of it and not care how long that makes the course). Similarly there's plenty of oldies for whom the green course is too long and physical, but who don't want the lower technicality of a light green.
To cut a long story short (or at least not over-long), what I'm trying to say is that if the colour-coded system is to be used for every event then there needs to be more courses available, thereby nullifying that aspect in which colour-codeds are easier to plan.
The problem with (b) is that EOD is fine when it is a mastermap system so you have a big pile of 2000 blank maps and sell as many as people turn up. When you're printing maps for the event with overprinting then you need some way to judge how many to print - which isn't easy. I've been to at least two colour-codeds (out of about three or four in total) this year where certain courses have been full by about 11am (particularly orange/l.green). Organisers don't want to print too many copies though as they are then left with lots of waste paper. The only solution is to have pre-entry so you know how many people are going to turn up... which requires more organisation.
sorry, just pulling apart all your arguments for the sake of it there, P&C. colur codeds can be good, they can also be abysmal. as can badge events, national events and international events.
The problem with (a) is that there is an insufficient range of courses to keep everyone happy - e.g. most of the time I'd consider about 70 minutes a decent length of time to be out orienteering (not too short considering the time spent travelling, not too long that it just becomes a trial), but I can't remember when a colour-coded last kept me occupied for over an hour. To do so would require a black course (or even a dark black course), or a return to how Cumbrian Galoppens used to be planned (i.e. we've got an area, it's tough, hilly, technical and large so lets use all of it and not care how long that makes the course). Similarly there's plenty of oldies for whom the green course is too long and physical, but who don't want the lower technicality of a light green.
To cut a long story short (or at least not over-long), what I'm trying to say is that if the colour-coded system is to be used for every event then there needs to be more courses available, thereby nullifying that aspect in which colour-codeds are easier to plan.
The problem with (b) is that EOD is fine when it is a mastermap system so you have a big pile of 2000 blank maps and sell as many as people turn up. When you're printing maps for the event with overprinting then you need some way to judge how many to print - which isn't easy. I've been to at least two colour-codeds (out of about three or four in total) this year where certain courses have been full by about 11am (particularly orange/l.green). Organisers don't want to print too many copies though as they are then left with lots of waste paper. The only solution is to have pre-entry so you know how many people are going to turn up... which requires more organisation.
sorry, just pulling apart all your arguments for the sake of it there, P&C. colur codeds can be good, they can also be abysmal. as can badge events, national events and international events.
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Ed - diehard
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Badge classes: This year we have agreed to participate in a BOF sponsored trial of a new system aimed at simplifying regional events. The intention is to encourage competitors to enter a course that suits them in terms of length and technical difficulty, rather than based on their age.
The provisional proposals are as follows:
Course 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11
Technical Difficulty 5 5 5 5 5 5 4 4 3 2 1
Length(km) 10 8.5 7 6 5 4 3.3 2.7 2.6 2 1.5
These may change slightly but the principle will remain the same. Keep an eye on BOF publications and their website in the coming months for further details and any modifications.
Don't know if that will come out all right - this is off the White Rose site - seems to be 11 courses - how does that compare to the usual badge event, six at td5 and interestingly 2 at td4 - that's one you could easily do without.
Just out of interest and a bit more on the earlier part of this topic - one of the most enjoyable series of events in my part of the world is the North Glocester min-league. Saturday afternoon - Just orange, green and blue, good terrain in the forest of Dean and no fuss - cheap to enter, apparently easy to organise and loads of fun with a league table at the end of it.
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Mrs H. - nope godmother
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No need to apologise ed,
Courses....
You may ony need a couple more courses to cater for almost everyone. A very short say 3k technical and a very long almost 75mins wining time as you say Blacker than black course. This Black Black could be really long more than 50-90% longer than brown. This would cater for the likes of the elites without degrading my origninal point about the competition aspects.
EOD.....
Yeah big problem as you say.
Maybe some sort of internet system where you just say the events you intend to attand. No Entry as such just "notice of intention to attend" type system. If the system was unversal (so you don't have to ferrit around individual club websites) then this would make it easier and more attractive to use. Use your BOF # as ID to reserve maps against perhaps i don't know.
This way the organisers would have an idea of the numbers (plus extra copies of course).
Hows about?
Courses....
You may ony need a couple more courses to cater for almost everyone. A very short say 3k technical and a very long almost 75mins wining time as you say Blacker than black course. This Black Black could be really long more than 50-90% longer than brown. This would cater for the likes of the elites without degrading my origninal point about the competition aspects.
EOD.....
Yeah big problem as you say.
Maybe some sort of internet system where you just say the events you intend to attand. No Entry as such just "notice of intention to attend" type system. If the system was unversal (so you don't have to ferrit around individual club websites) then this would make it easier and more attractive to use. Use your BOF # as ID to reserve maps against perhaps i don't know.
This way the organisers would have an idea of the numbers (plus extra copies of course).
Hows about?
"Poor is the student who does not surpass his master" - Leonardo Da Vinci
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pasta and cheese - orange
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I still think one or two more courses on top of that would be needed - e.g. longer and shorter light greens to cater for those wanting a not-too technical course of the appropriate length (adult beginners, juniors who want a longer course but nothing harder). On the other hand, the current badge system doesn't provide all that either.
Local events here in the NE usually have pre-printed maps, with pre-event publicity (e-mail/flyers/website) asking people intending to go to e-mail the organiser in advance so they can judge numbers. I've no idea how effective it is - I do send the e-mail when I think, but just as often don't.
Re Mrs H's comments about the enjoyable local league, I'd have to say that some of my favourite events in this country ever have been WAROC's 'Battleaxe' evening league (60 minute score events, central lakes terrain e.g. Loughrigg, Silver Howe, Brantwood, Black Fell), about 4-6 events on Weds evenings in April-June. Minimal organisation, and fantastic. As is the O-Trial in December, again minimal organisation but always great courses and a real challenge. Give me those over most national events or UKCup races any day.
Local events here in the NE usually have pre-printed maps, with pre-event publicity (e-mail/flyers/website) asking people intending to go to e-mail the organiser in advance so they can judge numbers. I've no idea how effective it is - I do send the e-mail when I think, but just as often don't.
Re Mrs H's comments about the enjoyable local league, I'd have to say that some of my favourite events in this country ever have been WAROC's 'Battleaxe' evening league (60 minute score events, central lakes terrain e.g. Loughrigg, Silver Howe, Brantwood, Black Fell), about 4-6 events on Weds evenings in April-June. Minimal organisation, and fantastic. As is the O-Trial in December, again minimal organisation but always great courses and a real challenge. Give me those over most national events or UKCup races any day.
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Ed - diehard
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Mrs H,
I thought badge events tend to have between 20 -25 courses but some can be the same course with different maps eg M45L - M18A.
Again i may be wrong,
The white rose will be interesting an at only 11 courses it will be good to see what the punters make of it.
I thought badge events tend to have between 20 -25 courses but some can be the same course with different maps eg M45L - M18A.
Again i may be wrong,
The white rose will be interesting an at only 11 courses it will be good to see what the punters make of it.
"Poor is the student who does not surpass his master" - Leonardo Da Vinci
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pasta and cheese - orange
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Yeh I agree, when I was at home I used to run the WCOC evening events and they are just as much fun as a badge event or a colour coded. It is more compeitive because there are only 2 course options, long and short, (and also a novice one) so I could race top M40s and stuff which makes it just as competitive, if not more so than a W21 course at a badge event. The same can be said for colour coded events. Fewer course means I can race men on the blue and have to run really well to get a good result which is always more satisfying.
it's all fun
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m - nope young team
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NGOC Saturday leage events are great fun but they have their limits. This is not a criticism of the events or NGOC - they fulfill their purpose more than adequately. A blue course on a Saturday is fine as long as I do a Brown/M21L/long bike ride on the Sunday. Also you're not going to find much technical challenge on the areas they use. Forgive me if I mis-understand what we're suggesting is not swapping badge/regional events with informals but for a new "super colour coded regional" event type? Hey let's just mess with the event names again. The number courses suggested 1-11 may just do it?
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FatBoy - addict
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I'm no code monkey (Ha Ha Ha or should I sau lol) but would it not be possible for those who e-mail saying they intend to enter the cc to get an official memo back which they could exchange for a guaranteed over printed map - everyone else would have to take their chance.
m - I did a evening event at white Moss after the JK it was really good - just a long and short- but I thought the addition of a yellow/orange would have been better for the younger kids - my girls could have probably coped with the short as a pair - but they are quite reasonable - less experienced youngsters might have struggled - but it wouldn't have been scary as there were load of folks milling around.
Just seen your post Fatboy - no I take your point - I was just pursuing the enjoyment/event ratio - you know, less can be more blah blah.
I think fewer courses at a regional event would force me to take a step up from my short course haven - which would be a good thing - I would no longer have the excuse that long courses are too long.
m - I did a evening event at white Moss after the JK it was really good - just a long and short- but I thought the addition of a yellow/orange would have been better for the younger kids - my girls could have probably coped with the short as a pair - but they are quite reasonable - less experienced youngsters might have struggled - but it wouldn't have been scary as there were load of folks milling around.
Just seen your post Fatboy - no I take your point - I was just pursuing the enjoyment/event ratio - you know, less can be more blah blah.
I think fewer courses at a regional event would force me to take a step up from my short course haven - which would be a good thing - I would no longer have the excuse that long courses are too long.
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Mrs H. - nope godmother
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