Choice of scale at Graythwaite National!!

[harry]

"Fun" poll, "fun" event more like. What a complete joke!

I don't remember having any problems with the clarity of the 1:15000 map at JK 2004. It is a shame that LOC have made a mockery of this National event when it is being held on such a fantastic area. There should be far more opportunities to run on 1:15000 maps in the UK and I have orienteered on far more detailed areas than Graythwaite at 1:15000.

Whether or not LOC are right about the scale issue in this case, for orienteering to be a proper sport the maps should have to conform to certain standards. It is irrelevant whether competitors get a choice, the fact is that people competing against each other should be doing so under the same conditions. Same conditions during the race that is.

I hope that someone somewhere sees sense and either sets maps scales for each class (3 different ones if necessary) or demotes the status of this event from National event to "novelty event".

[distracted]

I have orienteered on far more detailed areas than Graythwaite at 1:15000

Indeed! Go to Scandinavia and what's the technical quality of the terrain like over there? Yet that can be adequately mapped at 1:15000 and this can't? I had a crystal-clear 1:15, 2.5m contour map at TioMila last year, absolutely fantastic to run on! And what about Lunsen (map below) - not really that complex...

Typical part of Lunsen - mapped for 1:15000...

lunsen.gif (58.77 KiB) Viewed 5092 times

So what makes Graythwaite different?

From memory, the general opinion [of the World Cup competitors] was that the map would have been ok at 1:15,000, or at least that the terrain is nothing which couldn't be sensibly mapped at 1:15,000.

If this is the opinion of the elite competitors, does that suggest something about the way the map has been drawn? Some might say this is a more general problem though, not just in the UK. It was quite interesting how they adjusted the Czech maps so that they were suitable to be used for the World Champs last year...

Certainly the 1:15,000 version used for the JK (elite long courses only?) in 2004 seemed to be acceptable (with 1:10,000 for everyone else)

Has anything significant changed about the area during the last 5 years? Someone been in with a bulldozer, created a few more contour features, dropped in a few more boulders and crags?

I wonder whether any of those involved who made this decision (as I've still not seen a justifiable explanation) would be on a course that would ordinarily use a 1:15000 map. If not then how can they say that the elites and 18-40 age group should be using a 1:10000 map?

One of the main reason for offset litho at 10,000 is to appease Map Group.

So it seems you've gone and changed your mind about this as well now? I guess without any difference in printing technologies, there's only one likely majority result for the 1:10000 vs 1:7500 argument now...

[graeme]

Certainly the 1:15,000 version used for the JK (elite long courses only?) in 2004 seemed to be acceptable (with 1:10,000 for everyone else)

As it happens I found it very difficult to read, even with my magnifier. Would have been churlish to complain at the time, since the organisers had decided people of my age (then M40) needed 1:10.

I did even ask whether I could take an (old) 1:10000 with me, but apparently that's illegal.

Compared with Lunsen, I find the main difficulty is reading brown on green, compounded by the fact that typically it has to be done in poor light.

Litho printing helps a lot - I found Penhale individual (litho, 1:15) easier the the relay (laser 1:10).

[Mrs H]

Well personally i'd go with whatever Carol McNeill says is required - i think she is still the gretest orienteer this country - and I do mean GB not England - has ever produced - just a shame she didn't take it up when she was younger

[EddieH]

I trained on te Lunsen map many years ago. Were they 1m contours? It seemed almost totally flat to me - all I could do was use a compass and identify the odd marsh

[Scott]

And what about Lunsen

Personally, I was quite glad to have 1:10,000 maps when we ran on Lunsen.

Eddie - the contours are 2.5m (now, anyway). It sounds like your Lunsen experience was similar to mine...

[ifor]

I did a night event on Lunsen after training on it during the day. It was late march and the marches were semi frozen. They had a mass start 30 or 40 people doing the long course. I was all right in the pack until I missed one controll then I was by myself. I was the last finisher and they were begining to ask how experianced I was at the finish by the time I apeared.

As someone has pointed out having technical stuff on white background is a big differance to on green. I don't realy care what scale the map is as long as I know and more importantly so does the planner.

Ifor

[EddieH]

Ifor wrote "I don't realy care what scale the map is as long as I know and more importantly so does the planner."

I'm not so sure even that matters. We had not 1 but 2 Scottish League races on an area without anyone noticing that the stated 1:10000 should have been 1:7500

[Big Jon]

Eddie wrote -"I'm not so sure even that matters. We had not 1 but 2 Scottish League races on an area without anyone noticing that the stated 1:10000 should have been 1:7500 "

Unless an area is dead flat and devoid of detail most orienteers use a rough distance judgement based on observing features and adapting their distance estimation to fit. I ran one of the events eddie refers to and didn't notice a thing - though I was quite pleased to be running fairly fast mins/km on a tough hilly area

[mharky]

I've done several times, your brain just adapts to the relative spacing of features. I've run on both 1:15,000 and 1:7,500 thinking I was on 1:10,000. The brain adapts. I've also run on a 1:16,500 because the course wouldn't fit onto A4.

The important thing is that the map is accurate and you can read it. From what I can remember from JK2004, the 1:15 map was accurate and I could read it. I don't see why anything has changed in the last 5 years.

[TimField]

I gather that this event is now been changed to a "Regional Event" British Orienteering is to make an offical announcement tomorrow afternoon.

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Personally I think this is a very sensible outcome, since the choice of map scales did seem to go against the clear ruling of the BOF committees.

Personally I against making events more complicated and thus giving a choice of map scales is a very unattractive idea to me. Normaly I disagree with BOF but this time I think they have got it correct.

[ifor]

It's the times when the planer thinks it's 1:10000 and it's actualy 1:15000 which I have had on at least two occasions that I would find tough now a days... as you say actualy out there I would probobly adapt ok for the navigating.

Ifor

[RJ]

I gather that this event is now been changed to a "Regional Event" British Orienteering is to make an offical announcement tomorrow afternoon.

Now that really is interesting....!!!

Have Map Group, Major Event Group and BOF finally got tired of the 'tail wagging the dog'????????

[Mrs H]

The announcement is already up on the LOC page this morning

his event is now a REGIONAL event. Everything else, especially the quality of the orienteering, remains the same. We look forward to seeing you in April - the best time to orienteer in the Lakes.

British Orienteering have released the following statement: -

"The LOC event at Graythwaite on April 19th will now be a Regional Event (Level 2) and not a National Event (Level 1). This decision was taken at the meeting of the Events Committee on Saturday, 17 January. At their November meeting, Events Committee made a clear decision on the maps scales to be used at the event which was communicated to LOC. LOC chose not to follow this decision. National Events are British Orienteering’s quality events and as such must comply with rules and guidelines for these events. There are processes in place to ask for an exception to a Guideline and such an exception has not been agreed for this event. An event which does not comply with the Rules and Event Guidelines cannot be considered a National Event.This decision was reinforced by the strong opinion of the majority of committee members that competition between runners in the same age class using different map scales might not be considered to be fair.In making the decision, Events Committee recognised that there are strong views on both sides of the debate on the use of 1:7500 for older competitors. There is little evidence to support any of the arguments. Evidence needs to be gathered to allow informed debate on the map scales used at major events. In that context, Events Committee welcomes the imaginative initiative of LOC but such an experiment is not appropriate to a National Level event. A survey of participants will be carried out to obtain feedback on the maps. A similar process will be undertaken at other events during 2009."

[graeme]

Weird, I wonder what "evidence" they want.

Seems obvious that
1/ larger scale is better for detail, smaller scales are more manageable, and better for "seeing big picture".
2/ litho printing is clearer for the competitor and more hassle for the club.
3/ people's eyesight deteriorates as they get older.

Beyond that, it's just personal preference, and LOC seem to be doing the right thing to gather evidence on that...

Meanwhile, it is interesting to contrast the current level 1 guideline

http://www.britishorienteering.org.uk/d ... Jan_07.pdf

Whilst the main map scale is to be 1:15,000, a scale of 1:10,000 is recommended for M/W45 and above and for M/W16 and below. ... However, where particular classes require a different map scale to other classes running the same physical course, ... It is wise not to number such courses consecutively, to avoid them having adjacent lanes in the start grid as this has been known to tempt the unscrupulous 1:15,000 competitor to run off with a 1:10,000 map.

with the proposals for next year...

http://www.gborienteering.org.uk/downlo ... GuideC.pdf

The main map should be prepared to be legible at 1:15,000, a scale of 1:10,000 is
recommended for M/W45 and above and for M/W16 and below. Maps prepared for use at 1:10,000 should not be reduced to 1:15,000 “because it’s a Championship Event”: if the map has been prepared for use at 1:10,000, this larger scale must be used. However, where particular classes require a different map scale to other classes running the same physical course, the appropriate map scale should be provided for each competitor. ... It is wise not to number such courses consecutively, to avoid them having adjacent lanes in the start grid as this has been known to tempt unscrupulous 1:15,000 competitors to run off with a 1:10,000 map when illegible 1:15,000 maps have been suspected.