New Event Structure

[Clive Coles]

I had been expecting the BOF Fixture List to classify events as L1, L2 or L3 by now but the 8th Jan list still shows C2, C3 and C5. Is that going to change?

The answer is yes ~ there will be a new style BOF fixture list sometime soon... hopefully !

The new BOF commissioned software appears to have been in some form of beta testing since the summer. I, and the other Regional Fixtures secretaries, had been thinking it might be launched at the same time that the new 3 tier event structure came into being. It is quite clear now that the software is not yet ready for release. I have no idea when it will be launched nor do I know what it might look like.

So.... for now we have a bridging situation. We have to await the "new world" with patience and some sympathy for those who are trying to get the system to be fit for purpose.

[awk]

A bit like the new BOF results page, which was scheduled to take (AFAIR) six weeks, and took at least as many months, longer I think, with the result that it's never really recovered.

[Gross]

But how many hoops did it have to jump through... and was the number increased as the 'plan' developed?

[DavidJ]

Congratulations to Gross whose posting has made this thread the longest so far in the Discussion Forum of Nopesport (the Banter Forum does contain two longer threads though). As an important topic, my thanks to everyone who has made this an interesting thread to read.

[Mrs H]

Now here's my question. My son Young Neville was quite a useful junior but he realised quite a long while ago that he didn't want to do loads of training to stay in the upper echelon and, like his mum and dad, doesn't even like doing massive distances ( he is noted for his sprint finish).

He hasn't done much since he went away to Uni for this very reason. But at the weekend i took him to a couple of events where he creamed round a couple of greens in around 35 mins, I expect much to the annoyance of some green die hards who will complain that the green standard was harder to get because of him being there, but he enjoyed it so much he is resolved to get out and do more events (at the shorter distance).

Will the united ranking list allow people like Neville to run the course he most enjoys without people looking down on him and being critical. I think this attitude may have a bearing on the M/W 21 turnout thread too - not everyone wants to run 10k+ just because someone else somewhere thinks that's what they should be doing.

[graeme]

Will the united ranking list allow people like Neville to run the course he most enjoys without people looking down on him and being critical.

For me, allowing this sort of thing to happen was THE major argument for the new event structure. And even in the first month, it does seem to be happening.
I can't see any effect of the ranking list, but the colour standards may have to shift to average time (median is best) instead of winner's time. But that should have been the case anyway.

not everyone wants to run 10k+ just because someone else somewhere thinks that's what they should be doing.

...or indeed 6k-

[distracted]

Will the united ranking list allow people like Neville to run the course he most enjoys without people looking down on him and being critical.

Why should the ranking list be determining anything? (unless said person has an interest in it, of course) There is now the freedom for everyone to do what they want to, when and where they want to - making things more enjoyable for the participant. It's good to hear that people are making the most of this opportunity

As for people looking down/saying "why are they only running green" etc. - there's not much a ranking list can do to appease them...

[greywolf]

...at the weekend i took him to a couple of events where he creamed round a couple of greens in around 35 mins, I expect much to the annoyance of some green die hards who will complain that the green standard was harder to get because of him being there...

Good on him. I ran mostly Green & "S" courses in 2008, partly for reasons of age, unfitness & decrepitude, partly because I was nervous about leaving my boy unattended for too long - see the "getting families to go orienteering" thread for the evidence...

I overheard a few grumbles about the standard - but my answer is that these are basically spurious, as at least half the field are guaranteed to make the standard, even if none of them are within 150% of the winners time (and in any case the Controller may extend the qualifying time if there are reasonable circumstances to do so). (And who would want to earn a standard by dint of everyone else being really slow too..?)

Personally I think the best single thing about the new event structure is the abolition (except for championships) of "if you are aged X then you have to run Y" - IMHO, and to link to another current thread, this mentality has been a significant contributing factor in the failure to attract and retain M/W21s.

[Mrs H]

...or indeed 6k-

Quite - but there's kudos to running up not down - why? I could quite perceive it to be "cool" for young people to run short distances given the right conditions - was there not a "tour de Scottish" run over the 21short class one year? I can't quite remember the details but it sounded fun to me.

I'd like to think of ways of raising the profile of the shorter courses so that more "useful" orienteers like Neville will have a go at them and they will be taken more seriously because I think there are a lot of young people out there who stop doing the sport rather than consider the shorter distances as a competitive option once they don't have the time/inclination/predisposition to do 10k+ on a regular basis.

Young Neville has never much cared what other people think but it does matter to some youngsters. Also there is the attitude of paying all that money/travelling all that way for such a short outing. Well he didn't rush home (remember he was with me so he had to hang around) and he spent his time chatting (can't imagine who he gets that from) and eating a lot of food - instant social. It would be a shame to lose Neville to the sport - all that Interland, World Schools, FCC stuff is behind him - but by the age of 16 he had also mapped, planned, controlled and organised events - that's where his real potential lies but he's hardly likely to fulfill it if he's being whinged at by green course habitues on one side and long course snobs on the other. I can feel a CS article coming on.

just seen your response Greywolf - we are on the same wave length.

[graeme]

Quite - but there's kudos to running up not down - why?

Maybe because running "up" means running slower and running "down" means running faster.

[Lumpy Lycra]

Will the united ranking list allow people like Neville to run the course he most enjoys without people looking down on him and being critical?

No. Embedded in the sport's current psyche (and guidelines) is the notion of "expected winning times" and the range of times for "normal" competitors. The new structure helps those of us who wish to be abnormal to do so without changing sex and gender. A united ranking list could help us to do so and still "compete" with friends on different courses. (Although experience of the WNL handicapping systems / HOC club champs handicap formula / inter-family competions at multi days suggests we'll spend far longer arguing about the algorithms than we do competing )

Quite - but there's kudos to running up not down - why?

Only if you "run up" within the accepted parameters. Otherwise you are some wierd oldie who has a distorted view of value for money and isn't really safe to be out.

but the colour standards may have to shift to average time (median is best) instead of winner's time.

Isn't that actually less generous than the current 50% of starters? Or are you suggesting median + x%?

I know the devil's in the detail, and that organising orienteers is an oxymoron, but I'm still hoping to complete a black course without ending orienteering as we know it - and if Graeme's formula would allow me to compare my performance with Mrs H on her turquoise course even better!

[Mrs H]

Yes that would be great fun - it is enticing to know that you and I at our cross over point are within seconds of each other but it really only happens when we are "made" to run the same course.

So when can we expect the united ranking list?

[DM]

Yes that would be great fun - it is enticing to know that you and I at our cross over point are within seconds of each other but it really only happens when we are "made" to run the same course.

So when can we expect the united ranking list?

And will any colour coded events run in the transition year up to the date the new list comes out be taken into account, the lingering C3s will be so will the same apply to Colour Coded events?

About 2 years ago I put a tongue in cheek comment about mutterings of the oldies wanting a separate list after being hammered by 14-16 year olds on greens at a WCH event. The reaction I got was "tough, that's life" - a view I totally agree with (until my eldest runs the same course as me when I'll stop feeding him and forget to pack his O shoes).

[graeme]

Dear Mrs H and Lumpy.

You can compare if you're on different courses. I'll spare you the maths, but since the system is designed to take everyone's preferences into account, I can tell you that you won.

And you were both well above average, along with everyone else.

[Mrs H]

Graeme - that sounds frightfully patronising - is that what you meant?