M/W 21 turnout.

[Angry Haggis]

We might learn more from the positive cases. Which events this weekend/last week did attract a reasonable number of M/W 21's?

A third of the field at Wanstead Park was M21s.

[DJM]

T5 wrote

M/W21 coincides with a period in peoples lives where they are building their careers and social lives - something has to give. Training and competing takes a lot of energy - sitting in a pub with a pint and a roast does not.

gnitworp wrote

a Regional (Badge) Event held on the same day as Postensplain (7th Dec) near Guildford in 1986 had 139 starters on M21A and 82 on M21B

The obvious question is why are today's M21s so different from those of 22 years ago? Are they working much longer hours? Are there more distractions? Or (highly provocatively) are they a product of cotton wool nurture and are therefore softer and lazier? [in general, that is ...]

[Mrs H]

Well for a starter when I was in that age group 32 years ago (although not an orienteer) petrol cost 20p a gallon (yes GALLON!) I passed my easy-peasy one stage driving test within weeks of my 17 birthday and picked up an old banger for next to nothing and drove myself all over the country for whatever adventures that took my fancy. Certainly travel costs would not have been a factor to consider.

even learning to drive is prohibitively expensive these days - let alone actually running a car once you have passed your test. i think a lot of people may be putting it off for as long as possible.

Mind you even back then I would not have been much fussed at taking up a sport with so few other young people in it. I am absolutely convinced that a mass campaign in the universities is the only way to rectify the situation - and that is not going to tick any of BOF's government funded politically correct agendas is it - so I can't imagine much support from that direction for such an initiative.

[EddieH]

32 years aga 20p per gallon! I don't think you've got that right Mrs H. But if you are right it was not for long. The first "oil crisis" at about that time more than doubled the price of fuel. Since that time I doubt that fuel has increased far above inflation. There have been occasional rapid rises, nearly all followed by a fall (with the latest pretty extreme).

2001 was just one of those times and I distinctly remember diesel costing OVER £1 per litre in Andover - and in those days petrol was dearer than diesel. The cost of basic living have I am sure risen, but car fuel, taking inflation into account has not IMO risen in any significant way over 20 years.

Maybe orienteering requires a fair amount of input in orser to get out the most, and with such busy lives it is just too much for most 21s. The shorter and urban variants do seem to be able to attract more and so should continue to grow.

Is there ANY regular sport that is not showing a similar decline in young adult participants? My guess is that any that you can come up with can only claim that because they are new sports (and therefore bound to grow or fold).

[SeanC]

I'm not sure how useful it is to speculate on why it's harder to attract 21's today than 20 years ago. There are so many possible reasons, increased competition from other activities, general fitness levels, our image (in comparison to what's fashionable), income, hours worked, uni orienteering clubs, junior numbers feeding in, increased numbers of older members, uk demographics etc etc.

What is more useful is comparing with clubs and events that are attracting more 21's today.

Orienteering is less of a challenge if you're already good at it, but we can easily market orienteering as a challenge to those M/W 21's who've never done it.

I think T5's comment shows the best way forward

"M/W21 coincides with a period in peoples lives where they are building their careers and social lives - something has to give. Training and competing takes a lot of energy - sitting in a pub with a pint and a roast does not."

That's exactly why I gave up orienteering in my 20's, but I would add that it's not just about being lazy. For most people faced with the choice of a social life or exercise the social life is the essential, the exercise is a poor second.

If the sport gave both we would get this age group back IMHO. Maybe clubs could set a target for the number of local events with a good social attached - 1 per week for large clubs, 1 per fortnight for small ones. This plus appropriate publicity (which might be different publicity than traditional publicity that works for older people) could pull in a big number of punter standard orienteers want to meet other M/W21s and have a good time - a few would go on to do regional long courses.

[Scott]

Since that time I doubt that fuel has increased far above inflation. There have been occasional rapid rises, nearly all followed by a fall (with the latest pretty extreme).

Bimbling merrily off topic, this is quite interesting.

[frog]

I wasn't really aware of orienteering until in my early 30s. I think if you don't come from an orienteering family you don't come across it. Road running is better publicised. I think we should aim more at attracting adults of all ages who then bring their kids along than concentrating on the school stuff.
I also don't like the longer = better mentality alot of orienteers have, after all in road running the young folk don't do marathons whilst the OAPs do 10ks, it's often the other way round.

[roadrunner]

Also the lack of 21s at events over the past few weekends should be quite normal as it is the off season for most runners.

For the elites maybe, but do ordinary M/W21s have an "off season"? And if they do, why don't veterans?

In the South, most events tend to be between September and May, so I'd say that for the ordinary orienteer around here, June to August is the off season.

[Mrs H]

Jeeze! okay 35 years ago (which is when I learned to drive) petrol was 35 p a gallon - and no concerns about global warming - my point stands .

My other point was more significant - social, social, social.

I'm thinking of revisiting my EVO (Extra Value Orienteering) concept in CompassSport at some time in the near future.

Frog I entirely agre with you about the longer is better mentality - i think a lot of young people find the 11k courses more than they want but dropping down the short seems to have a bit of a stigma attached to it.

the tour de... whatever attached to the Scottish 6 Days recently was i think run on the M21S course which adds some fun/kudos - i hope it continues.

i know Young Neville thoroughly enjoyed a very small competition among friends at the Welsh on M20S this summer having been bored rigid on the long course on day 1. I don't think he'd have seen the week out if he'd had to do that every day - as it was he had a good time.

[NFKleanne]

Why did I go orienteering on Sunday.

Firstly its because its about the only exercise I do - I've got 6 kids (aged 2-20), work full time, and its something we can all do together - WHICH WE ALL ENJOY.

I'm more liable to go if it local. On Sunday after my run I took the kids home, had shower, sunday roast, then returned to see the presentations.

Cost is important - Because they run in pairs (at the moment) it cost £10 for us all to have a run - orienteering is a damn site cheaper than going to the cinema.

Orienteering can be quite social if you let it. I talked to lots of people - I often email people who ran the same courses to see if we went wrong at the same place.
Volunteering to help is fun too. I did a stint at registration earlier this year, and on Sunday did an hour directing cars to parking befor doing my run. (It can be chilly though)

Then of course theres the run - I had an excellent run, but managed to use my sons SI Card for the start of my run and mine for the rest of it. He got a mispunch, and I got a really long time - which annoyed me a bit, I won't do it again. I really must learn to use a SI Card!!

The club also run weekly taining sessions, if I lived closer to norwich would go to weekly training sessions (maybe)!!

The main thing is the challenge - I would never just go out for a run, you can't beat the feeling when you get round a course without getting to lost.

[EddieH]

Well said NFKleane. I like your attitude - you enjoy it for itself, not for fashion reasons you are (unfashionably ) happy to show your delight, and you create your own social side.

Of course it is good to provide social activities - The Edinburgh weekend ceilidh is a great example, but let's not throw out what we do have as well. In Scotland that includes many events in remote spots - go to local tea-shops afterwards and you'll find plenty of orienteers.

[NFKleanne]

At some Norfolk events you can find us loitering for a few hours - working out were we went wrong. Drinking Tea/Coffee etc. Living in Kings Lynn most of the area are the far side of norwich, places like Bacton which is nearly 2 hours drive away. We often make a day trip of it -
Because I work till 9 on Sunday, i have brekky as soon as I finish, get the kids then go. They do there runs then we have a picnic - then do something in the afternoon.

[El]

If it's at all interesting, here is my experience. 2 years ago I was probably one of the more active young adult orienteers. I spent my weekends going to events, trained during the week to maintain a certain level of fitness, ran for a Swedish club in Tio Mila and Jukola, and was actively involved in coaching juniors at regional and national level.

This year I can easily list the events I have been to - JK Day 3 and Relay, BOC, World Champs Spectator Races in the Czech Republic, SOS club relays, London City Race, SPOOK relays.

What has changed in the intervening period?

1. Location - I was at university in Sheffield and then law school in Nottingham and was able to get to lots of events easily. I now live in London which is really not that close to many great orienteering areas.

2. Available time - until Feb 2007 I was a student. I had time for seeing friends during the week and could fit in training around my studies, leaving weekends free to travel to events. I had huge amounts of holiday time so spending two weeks in the summer coaching on tour, and one week at a multi-day event was easy.
Now I work long, and unpredictable hours. If I'm going to exercise it has to be before work, or occasionally in my lunch break. I have a limited mid-week social life so my weekends are needed for a) resting from the previous week and chilling out before the next week and b) seeing friends. I only have 25 days holiday a year. I am less inclined to trek away for the weekend or a whole day to go orienteering unless I know it'll be a great course. Note, it's the course I care about, not the added extras, although novelty is an attraction. The social side is all very well but I wouldn't choose to go orienteering because of it, rather I go for the adventure, the challenge and the exhilaration of being out in the wild.

[rocky]

Why I didn't go orienteering last weekend
Actually, I probably would have gone to Tentsmuir if I wasn't injured. But if I had it would have been only my second event in the second half of 08, and first in a forest (London being the other). Either way I figure I probably count in the "didn't orienteer" side of things.

Why?
Some of the reasons I don't orienteer as much these days:
1. Lack of team spirit. When I was a student we trained as a team and raced as a team, relays and BUSA were highlights and definite "fixtures" in the calendar. Now to train with my BOC-winning team mates I'd have to fly to Essex or Oslo and I certainly don't feel the same need to travel the length of the country for the sake of a relay team. On the contrast my running club are a definite club with a great social scene, attitude (and occasionally we win things - but that is a side distraction
2. Lack of competition. I'm a racer. I love races. 95% of british events don't cater for this. This year I ran in the Scottish Road racing grand prix. Not because I enjoy road racing in particular or because I wanted to win the series, but because I knew that at 10 well-defined races through the year there would be good quality competitions where I could really push myself.
3. Boredom I've lived and orienteered in Scotland all my life, there are not many areas I've not run on.
4. Boredom Too many badly planned courses which were long for lengths sake.
5. Disillusionment with elite team Constantly chasing the next world champs without any actual focus on genuine improvement of standards. Plus, I've realised that to be internationally successful at my best discipline (sprint) I need to improve my basic speed, so I'm happy to step away from trying to get into GB teams for a couple of years while I work on that.
6. Other sports As I've alluded to in the last few points, I've found a lot of what I'm after elsewhere. Cross country and road running give me competition, hill-running has got me out in the wild-spaces and given me international competition. I still enjoy orienteering, I'm just picking and choosing what my fixtures are.

Not sure what conclusions to draw from all this, I think ultimately there are lots of small reasons why I didn't run at Tentsmuir. If my orienteering club were as strong as my running club I probably would have - in fact I nearly went to watch a cross-country race near Tentsmuir a couple of weeks ago despite the fact I'm injured and couldn't run. I'd have gone because it would be a social event and spectacle (as it happened the roads were pretty icy so plan (a) of cycling up there was out, so I went for plan (b) and waited for them to come back to the pub in edinburgh.

see you at a race soon,

-murray strain

[wonderboy]

I agree very much with the comments raised by Eleanor and Murray and they represent very well the reasons why people don't go orienteering so much in their 20's.

From my own perspective, the reason why I keep orienteering is an absolute love for the sport. It took me a while during the transfer from junior to senior to get used to the fact that I was now a small fish in a big pond and I would need to set my own reasonable targets rather than simply to win as I had done often as a junior. For many other junior colleagues of mine, it was the winning they liked, and when that stopped, so did they; so RJ's comments about too many prizewinners may well hold true.

I think that the comment about forging a career is also perhaps the most significant. Once you realise that orienteering isn't going to pay the bills, you find yourself working long hours and needing the weekends to recover, or do a less time demanding activity. The problem with orienteering is it takes out so much of the day or whole weekend. To achieve top senior results (or even just be fit enough to get round the courses requires the commitment to at least two training sessions a week)

Many of the friends I went on junior tours with are now in jobs in London or other cities with no car available to them, and so the effort involved in organising to go orienteering is too much; their love for the sport does not overcome the other offers (social night out, seeing friends, other less time consuming sporting activity).

Many of them often speak of comebacks to the sport and indeed some have done, but some are afraid that they will not be able to reproduce old standards! I tell them that no-one will even notice or probably care, but they do not want to be seen as "out of shape". It sounds vain, but it's a true and repeated picture that I've observed.

Overall, in terms of future recruitment, I believe that whole family recruitment is important and young seniors (post 21) also. I see little evidence that juniors who orienteer without parental participation remain in the sport, except in the odd cases where they "catch the orienteering obsession bug". However these few cases are often the ones that go on to be GB orienteers.

I think in terms of the type of events needed to recruit new 21's then variety is the key: city, sprint, middle, long, ultra-long (single day MM/long-O style). Then you catch the less-fit city type who can manage the shorter distances and the super-fit headbanging fellrunner types as well.

Decent kit will help and the change of O-top style has helped a little in this respect.
A midweek training & social focus for the club is also essential but sadly lacking in many clubs.
A friendly feel when you join a club; it should not be 2 years before you know a few names of people in your club!

All of these ideas will help to retain and attract members in the 21 age group, and if they fall into the "caught the bug" category then the clubs will reap the rewards from their volunteer efforts for years to come.