M/W 21 turnout.

[graeme]

But this shouldn't be the only brand we can come up with - there's got to be scope for a brand covering more traditional races.

Like "Snail Trail 2008" for example?

[Paul Frost]

It would be sad if some older folk became demotivated by changes, but if those changes are necessary to attract younger adults - it would be a price worth paying.

The only problem with this is that at the moment I suspect most planning, organising and mapping is done by the "older folk". So if you demotivate them who is going to put on all these events for the "youngsters"?

I accept that we need to do something to encourage a younger participation but we need to be careful. An analogy from my youth:

There was a furniture retailer who's image was "cheap" and they had loads of customers in the lower demographic groups. They decided to go "up market" and sell better quality at higher prices. Now their existing customer base couldn't afford to shop there, but the hoped for newer more affluent customer wouldn't be seen dead in a shop with an established image of "cheap". The company later ceased trading.

So we may have trouble appealing to "youngsters", who's image of orienteering may be old men running around in nylon pyjamas.

It takes a long time to change the image of a company/sport in peoples minds. It needs to be a gradual process, so you don't frighten off the existing customers before you attract the new ones.

[RJ]

We may very well be achieving some of that at the moment, with the small scale branding that is going on. Park Racing, City Races, UltraSprint, Long-O. If these are run separately from mainstream O then they will keep the people who were attracted in the first place. There will be gradual crossover and an expansion of the sport as a whole.

An issue worth thinking about is the insistance on TD5, and our 'love affair' with it. It has its place for top mainstream 'O'. You can have quality competition on areas with lower TD. Just brand the events and the 'O' that uses TD3/4.

[SeanC]

My experience is that people can be more open to changing event names than you think. You just have to get to the club committee meetings and argue your case. Everyone wants new people into the sport. Some more than others of course. Rebranding event names is a low cost change - no change to event times, course structure etc, so would be a good step in the evolution of the sport locally.

The difficulties I see is where a name has an emotional attachment - perhaps named after a former club member, or where club members cannot agree on the new name.

[seabird]

It takes a long time to change the image of a company/sport in peoples minds. It needs to be a gradual process, so you don't frighten off the existing customers before you attract the new ones.

But the evidence I have seen is that older orienteers don't become demotivated by changes that are attractive to younger people. They embrace them.

At the recent Skipton, Leeds and Sheffield races, I talked with a good number of people aged well past the 55 mark, who were trying urban racing for the first time.

All were converts, enthused by the quality of the racing and the atmosphere of the events. No-one was in the least bothered, indeed did not even mention, that they had no possibility of being on a podium or winning a prize.

I have no doubt that ,well-advertised, this kind of racing could provide a gateway to road runners into orienteering that is more attractive to them than the traditional cross-country event, and should be a route we all try and pursue.

And which whippersnapper wrote that tosh about leaving older orienteers to their fix in the forest while the young get on and map the universities. There are young and old mappers producing maps of urban areas, just as there are young and old mappers producing new maps of forests. A cause for celebration.

[Tatty]

As an "over 55" I must say that i find urban and sprint orienteering by far the most enjoyable. It evens makes me run!

[EddieH]

Seabird wrote[quote]At the recent Skipton, Leeds and Sheffield races, I talked with a good number of people aged well past the 55 mark, who were trying urban racing for the first time.

All were converts, enthused by the quality of the racing and the atmosphere of the events. No-one was in the least bothered, indeed did not even mention, that they had no possibility of being on a podium or winning a prize.[/quote]

Two points: I have pointed this out to many older orienteers - they all love it when they try, but look at the numbers - it is a very slow process getting them to try. The JK sprint is working wonders here.

And my 2nd point. OF COURSE they're not bothered about lack of prizes etc. no-one in this sport expects any form of prize or title from standard events.

However as AWK agrees the MAJOR events do NEED proper recognition which means at the very least a genuine title and a prizegiving that is not humiliating either because you go up with zero to present, or that 2nd, 3rd places are hived off into a corner.
It's quick enough to get combined classes up together and it adds to the whole affair as in WMOC this year when 3 men and 3 women were called up and presented together -very quick, very efficient and enjoyable. (If you have a screen with the names you don't even need to wait for pauses in applause to speak.)

I fail to see how any f this detracts from attracting M/W21s and as I said before if any were that egocentric that it did they hardly have enough love of the sport to continue anyway.

[Paul Frost]

But the evidence I have seen is that older orienteers don't become demotivated by changes that are attractive to younger people. They embrace them.

I agree that lots of older orienteers have/will come to love urban/sprint and other variations that will evolve, but as an addition to the normal forest orienteering.

All I'm saying is that we should not throw out the stuff that is the reason the existing orienteers are in the sport in the rush to try and recruit new participants (young or old).

We need to evolve, not change overnight.

[awk]

I agree that lots of older orienteers have/will come to love urban/sprint and other variations that will evolve, but as an addition to the normal forest orienteering.

Again, it comes back to balance, doesn't it? As a family, we love the urban racing, but we do so because of the variety it creates, not as a substitute. By mixing the urban racing in, our enjoyment of the forest sport has also increased (we're an M50, W50 and M18). This is, to my mind, a source of potential strength for the sport - the variety of formats and environments that can be used - and one that we need to exploit to the full.

One area that to my mind hasn't yet really taken off, at least in terms of events organised, is that of distance variations in 'terrain'. Most events focus on 'standard' distances, with the odd sprint and very occasional long-O thrown in. Middle distance races are virtually non-existent (good to see SEOA giving it a go). But this, at least according to some of the postings here, is I suspect an area which could help with M/W21 recruitment, because what we need are events where the 5-6k race is the 'main event', not just an S or V course. In fact, I really do hope we see more variety in future: more middle distance races, more sprints, and more long-Os,with the 'standard' event still being prominent, but not totally dominant as it largely is now.

[Scott]

Middle distance races are virtually non-existent (good to see SEOA giving it a go).

Blatant Plug
Probably a bit too far south for you, but WIM are organising the inaugural SWOA Middle Champs on 15th Feb on Gore Heath.

[eddie]

as you will (hopefully) all be aware i'm very interested in this area. I actually think the answer is relatively obvious it unfortunatley requires a couple of things 1. Some people to unfortunatly be a bit put out and 2. some people to be very enthusiastic 3. and here is the magic answer a good social scene (apologies here but that means no orienteering based quizes and more rude limericks - i'm so tempted to post them )

i really welcome people's inputs so stories/views/opnions please email them over (apologies i'm loosing the will to live on certain Nopesport threads these days - cheer up everyone please)

ed.nicholas@britishorienteering.org.uk

when i have two minutes i may write some of this stuff down and the wonderours beast that is the development committee may make all of this happen.

[Freefall]

Indeed we might young Ed - quite a lot of this stuff has been talked about and it's good to get ideas from this forum.

[roadrunner]

Take a look at the Venice street-O event; there were over 3000 competitors, and plenty in all the normal age categories from M/W10 to M70 and W65 that no-one could claim they didn't have decent competition. The open categories (i.e. M/W21) had the most of all, so clearly this event at least is still attracting this age group - there were MElite, MA, two MB, and MC courses, and WElite, WA, WB and WC courses, with at least 66 entries for each. There were also well-supported courses for beginners. What can we learn from this? Certainly it has the "brand" (and deservedly so), but I didn't see a lot in the way of publicity, though maybe there was more in Italy.

[awk]

What can we learn from this? Certainly it has the "brand" (and deservedly so), but I didn't see a lot in the way of publicity, though maybe there was more in Italy.

Yes it is the brand - Venice has a fantastic reputation, and we went in 2006 and 2007 simply on word of mouth, not going this year simply because we couldn't get the flights we needed. That brand, though, has been built up over more than 20 years. I've been very encouraged with the development of urban races here over the past few years. Our first was at Battersea Park in 2005, and since then there has been a steady increase in the number of events available, and they continue to grow.

Without doing any in depth analysis, my impression is that numbers taking part are steadily on the increase, and as the style becomes more and more available locally, that will continue to improve. Whilst we would like to have seen more, there is no way that we would have attracted 200+ to an urban race in Skipton even a couple of years ago. This year's Claro Street Race (Knaresborough) has seen a steady 10% annual increase in numbers in spite of the fact that this year it clashed with a Nopesport Urban League race in Stockport. We're not talking big numbers, admittedly, but that's got to be better than, for instance, the declines in numbers at SE regional events reported earlier on this thread.

[Angry Haggis]

I've been very encouraged with the development of urban races here over the past few years. Our first was at Battersea Park in 2005, and since then there has been a steady increase in the number of events available, and they continue to grow.

I think York predates that, this year's was the 8th. I think it's called the York "Park Race" simply because the term urban race wasn't around at the time.

SLOW has a series - the Trail Challenge - specifically advertised as being no harder than TD3. It's numbers are steadily rising, and it has good participation from the running as well as the orienteering communities, helped partly by good links with running clubs in the area. Maybe orienteering clubs should tie in more closely with their neighbouring running clubs? Running seems to be generally well represented in the Open age groups.