M/W 21 turnout.

[Gnitworp]

The single ranking list with points obtainable on any course seems to have been thrown out, mores the pity.

Has it?

What are we getting instead?

[NeilC]

The single ranking list with points obtainable on any course seems to have been thrown out, mores the pity, but the rest still applies.

Is your information source reliable? Last time I spoke to anyone on the rankings working group the primary objective was still to have a single list with points obtainable on any course.

[greywolf]

The single ranking list with points obtainable on any course seems to have been thrown out

what do you base that on?

The rankings working group hasn't reported yet, but i am sure it will back the "single ranking list" with the only caveat being "with points obtainable on courses at top TD" (but I can't believe you expect you'd get ranking points from the Orange couse...)

a more difficult problem is at how many events will it be possible to get (meaningful) ranking points...

[IanD]

what do you base that on?

Simply on the basis that I am reading entry details for new-style Regional events which specify the courses which each age class has to run in order to get ranking points.

I always saw ranking list reform as part and parcel of the whole events structure package, and now we have one being implemented without the other.

[Arnold]

There is no denying that MW21 turnout has shrunk massively. At BOC even only ten years ago, I came 14th out of 100+ on M21L with an excellent run. Last year I came 2nd out of 15 maybe, with a very average run. It's the same on badge events, where the 21L classes have shrunk a lot, and often the only ones left are 40s running up.

The problem, as was said before, is definitely the lack of recruitment of new 21s over the last 20 years, and the lack of conversion of juniors into 21s - but then there aren't a lot of juniors left to convert either.

But why is that? Yes, there are definitely more options for people nowadays, but conversely the outdoor / adventure race market is massively booming. Races in the SE often sell out and attract thousands. In my view, it's because the average orienteering "package" (regional or district) is not attractive for newcomers. It's too complicated to understand (courses, maps, SI Card...), there's not much atmosphere / no place to gather, and not many other 21s to talk to!

I'm not sure what the answer is but I do think (against the flow) that the new event structure is a start - have fewer, but better "big" events and then lots of uncomplicated local events ideally finishing at a pub.

The situation does seem pretty bad but there is hope to be had. (Anecdotally) non-standard events seem to manage to attract more 21s - think the London City Race, street-os and the like. And at the recent Venice Street-O, out of 3400 competitors about 900 were MW21s.

PS: It's not just 21s though - it feels that even the "retention" piece is slowly fading. Badge events in the SE now only attract 300-400 people when it used to be double. So we'll have to adapt the system whether we like it or not, because there won't be enough manpower around to organise as many events as before.

[SeanC]

I suspect that many adventure racers would be more open to local midweek orienteering. It won't clash with weekend adventure racing, and the fact that it's local is necessary during the working week. And if they want adventure, then night orienteering is an easy sell.

These debates aren't helped by the lack of reliable statistics. Maybe things have got better in the past few years, maybe not?

Restructuring events is a difficult job, probably necessary, but there are some quick wins. The two I'm thinking of are publicity and coaching. How many clubs have really effective publicity? And when newcomers start the sport are they welcomed and given basic coaching for their first few events, or are they left to it (and may therefore drift away)? And if not why not?

[distracted]

Simply on the basis that I am reading entry details for new-style Regional events which specify the courses which each age class has to run in order to get ranking points.

The new guidelines simply have a table of recommended mappings of age groups to courses - which effectively this mirrors the old badge class combinations - and make no mention of particular courses for ranking purposes. This is what clubs are regurgitating in the event details - with the addition of the note on rankings.

It seems that this is just a stop-gap during the transition:

The current ranking list will continue to be maintained using National Events (Level 1) and Regional Events (Level 2). The table mapping current C3 badge classes to the new Regional Event (Level 2) colour-coded courses will be used to select the courses for inclusion in the ranking list for a given age-class.

(about a single ranking list)
..it is likely, in the long term, that it will. However the interim solution will continue to give the rankings by age class.

As for the issue of older juniors and 21s in the sport - the social aspect is key, as is time commitment and hence accessibility - I think these are two reasons why the city races have been popular. It would also be nice if clubs and RDOs could do some work in universities, especially where an uni orienteering club does not exist - there is still too much focus on juniors in my opinion. The majority of students have an area literally on their doorstep, yet only a few select campuses are mapped... what better to create interest/intrigue than seeing people shooting past your window in each and every direction?

Comes back to the "local" aspect of things - what are newcomers, of ANY age, more likely to turn up to? A low-key event 10 minutes walk away in the local park, with someone there to talk through the basics and get you going, and a pub across the road for after the event. Or a 300+ person colour coded 1 hour drive away, in the middle of a forest with no atmosphere whatsoever...

We have to accept that the nature of our sport has to change to keep it alive! The difficulty seems to be convincing some clubs that this is the way forward...

[Mrs H]

I certainly think angry Haggis' point about sunday events is worth looking at. Saturday (even mid day to afternoon) would be so much more user friendly to 21s than sunday morning.

Ravinous wrote an editorial recently asking why in this day and age we were so hung up on Sunday events.

Social life is THE most important thing about being a student - so it's important not to make orienteering and socialising mutually exclusive - the clever thing is to make them inter dependent - Saturday event followed by pub food followed by club followed by lie in on sunday

[NFKleanne]

I totally agree with Mrs H, my friends are either working sunday mornings, or to hungover to drag themselves out of bed. I enjoyed going to a neighbouring clubs SMILE events during the summer on a saturday, but this could also prove problematic as the 5 kids that go orienteering on sundays have scouts, explorers etc on Saturdays

[EddieH]

RJ wrote:
"We simply have too many winners! Five year age classes, L and S. By having so many winners you devalue the 'commodity'. Just have OPEN and Veteran classes, and have the title of 'winner' meaning something. It might just attract people who fancy being the best."

Quite what conceivable difference that would make to M/W21s I cannot imagine.

As long as this is taken as referring to Badge/Regional events I personally am neutral, although I know some older low down the ranking list ladies in particular who utterly disagree with this.

When this argument gets taken into Championship events then all you will achieve is driving away more older competitors who cannot conceivably compete with people 20 or more years younger. No, the 5 year age groupings are without a doubt highly motivating to many people and should definitely be included in all "Championship" races - long, middle, sprint, night plus any further inventions.

They are clearly also popular in the Scottish league where the vast majority of people move up to their new age at the earliest possible moment. I often choose to run longer instead, but loads of people ask me why I languish low in the results instead of competing with a highly competitive M50 group.

[seabird]

I write as someone who will never again be in the youngest group within their age class for the Urban League. Which is no problem.

My motivation comes from running on good maps on interesting areas and comparing my times with my contemporaries. It matters not a jot which other age classes are sharing the course or who gets any prizes on offer.

For me, the social buzz is only a secondary consideration. I like to get away quickly and on with other things, particularly at a weekend.

But if that is a factor that could help in attracting the 21s, then what appeals to me is unimportant.

It would be sad if some older folk became demotivated by changes, but if those changes are necessary to attract younger adults - it would be a price worth paying.

We need to be focussing on the needs of the 21s to attract them into the sport.

My guess is that whatever changes come in, some older folk will grumble a bit (or a lot), but basically get on with participating in the sport that has become an established part of their lives.

[distracted]

My guess is that whatever changes come in, some older folk will grumble a bit (or a lot), but basically get on with participating in the sport that has become an established part of their lives.

Spot on! We spend too much time worrying about upsetting people who are entrenched in the sport when making changes to make it more attractive to others...

[Snail]

Two other aspects.

Fewer university clubs. Some years ago perhaps 30(?), now nearer 10(?). And many juniors now mkaing university choices on the basis of an existing active club, rather than (re)starting one if it doesn't exist when they get there, which tends to make things worse.

For the upper half of the age bracket (say 28-35), no familiy friendly facilities. Nearly all C1/2/3 events used to offer a creche / childcare / even just a large tent with a groundsheet. Starts blocks used to be at least 3 hours - with these shrinking it is becoming difficult to even achieve split starts.

[Mrs H]

Well of course any attempt at child care has been firmly knocked on the head by child protection legislation. Inspired by the O-ringen experience i looked into providing some professional child care for the JK05 but the necessary provisions (fenced in compound - seperate toilets etc) and the cost were beyond my powers to meet. I ended up providing public shelter tents with do -it - your self child care corners which seemed quite popular. I have tried to make sure some public shelter provision has been available at all events I have been associated with - I would like to see them more widely available with a few tables and chairs outside for chatting - it's a small and do-able start on the socialising front and sure as hell beats trying to look after a toddler for two hours in a steamed up car.

[Gross]

in a steamed up car.

And if you did that in Lithuania you'd be done for drink driving:) Honest!!! It's one of the signs the Police look for & can stop you.... steamed up windows means you've been drinking:)