to Clubmark or not to Clubmark.......?

[ifititches]

It'd be really useful to hear other coaches' and parent's experiences of Clubmark. The idea that it limits the adventure of orienteering (or any sport) has been very well aired, but I've seen no evidence of that in my own club (HOC) or in what I do as a coach/individual.

HOC had already put BOF child protection policy (? the most contentious bit) in the club constitution before Clubmark publicity ever flopped through Chairman's letterbox, and my (HOC) children hadn't noticed any curtailment in their enjoyment of HOC junior activity as a result...(HOC was really lucky to have some excellent coaches who had set the standard for HOC junior camps).


As non-teacher,without START or squad experience as a junior, getting coaching qualifications, and attending the Sports Coach UK courses,as part of Clubmark process, was interesting/useful +++, especially hearing the difficult situations very experienced coaches had had to work through with parents and juniors. Training opened up whole new career pathway for consideration! (sadly a lot less well-paid than my current work). For me (but ? not for other people) this training gave me the confidence to jump in with both feet and take over vacant coaching post on cttee.

I've found Clubmark a good structure, over the 3 years I've been helping with junior development in the club, to look at what's needed to build and maintain a junior club. HOC cttee modified some of the starchy, generic documents to fit more closely with orienteering, and the Clubmark file bulges with colourful reminders of HOC juniors' involvment and achievements The file's been hugely boosted by the MADO team's fantastic efforts in Malvern, and that's been so good to watch( and it's been so nice to put my feet up!)

I wouldn't actually have got involved in any of this (at least to this depth) without being personally kick-started by Clubmark, so I value it. But challenge for clubs (including HOC) that have Clubmark it is to make it self-sustaining and integrated into club philosophy. How have other clubs sustained that without relying too much on one or two individuals (who may want to move on to their next adventure in life, as they're that sort of person)?

[ifititches]

actually, beating self around head, why did that start as a question but turn into ifititches-fest?!

The questions really were

would your club clubmark, and if not why not? (apart from the child proection issue which has filled several forums before)

If you are going through Clubmark/ have done it, (or another junior development process) how have you built in the sustainabity?

[PorkyFatBoy]

The ongoing requirement to provide 30 hours of coaching, which would be primarily my responsibility and, quite simply, I don't have the time. The sustainability of this would be the main reason for not clubmarking initially.

[ifititches]

I agree, 30h = daunting, especially since have a job that means working a lot of weekends.

got round that personally by booking whole junior weekends twice a year, which makes up a lot of the hours immediately. Usually we've managed to camp on an O map and have access to another area nearby. With HOC covering from Herefordshire up to North Bham, where I'm based, it also means that the juniors get to spend more time together, and we can try stuff like OCAD and night O too.

BOF did say that SMILE events could count towards coaching hours, which I felt watered it down a bit, but does mean that our original SMILE events (and now MADO) events could count too. Great news is that MADO team have now started to include a coaching session as well, bringing HOC up to well in xs of 30.

I've had great support from other HOC coaches/parents/&JUNIORS, which made it a pleasure, and juniors are now training up too and finding new roles in sport. We had a wonderful example in one junior who even got elected club vice chairman; a tough act to follow!

(BTW, PFB I haven't forgotten you need my address!)[/i]

[Blanka]

>>Ifititches (and others)

I can see your view in how clubmark might have led to your own development, but what I would really be interested to hear (from you and other clubs who have implemented clubmark) is whether you have seen any tangible advantage for the club in having the status?

And, maybe more importantly, have any clubs that don't have clubmark found that an issue, i.e. has there been a distinct disadvantage (eg. less funding, other problems) in not having the 'stamp'?

I would be interested to hear in the experience of the Clubmark of clubs as a whole.

Thanks,
Blanka

[guest]

Interesting comment on the 30 hours a year of junior coaching. If you compare orienteering with other sports we don't have a tradition of clubs having weekly junior coaching nights like, say a cricket or a badminton club, so what is our equivalent? Some clubs may have suitable 'training evenings' which have activities suitable for children but in the main our 'training events' are the low-key events on summer evenings or Saturdays as these are surely for 'training' rather than for competition? I think that orienteers have got so hung up on competition that they don't put such a high regard on 'events' where they can practise certain skills.

Vicky, the new BOF Coaching Manager, is trying to raise the profile of coaching for everyone (not just juniors)by arranging for a coaching tent to be at the SROC National Evenet where people can come along and talk through their course after their run - this is an aspect of 'coaching' which could and should be on offer far more at local and district events as should coaching days - and maybe these would add to a club's social scene and help to retain members.

I got a bit off the topic but Clubmark is about defining a high quality club and about looking at what a club does and seeing if things could be improved - yes the paper work is a bit tedious but it is there more to give clubs good practice than to be a stick. Good clubs are already doing these things and it doesn't take long to find the evidence to show that you are. Workshops are part of developing the volunteers' skills - we all do CPD in our jobs, why not in our volunteering too?

[Mrs H.]

Yes well we all know what clubmark is meant to be - but Ifit is asking if clubs have actually found it worth the effort.

Given that we had most of the policies in place being a "good" club it still seemed to entail an enormous amount of work on Ifit's part ( a very busy professional woman with a demanding job) to gain the award - I am prepared to believe she may be overly conscientious - as her post about coaching events suggest - but even so - is this all really necessary - and for what?

When I asked for money from Sport Relief - they asked what policies we had in place - i said "It's Ok mate - we've got Clubmark" they said "What's that"?

It reminds me of my time as a school governor - it's not enough to have an excellent school producing happy pupils and excellent results - you have to produce evidence of how it's done (the truth being you then start monitoring the teaching rather closely to find the magic ingredient and woosh - it disappears infornt of your eyes!).

No-one who has attended a MADO event has asked if we are Clubmarked - and after Sport Relief i haven't bothered telling people who have given me grants.

SO - I'll ask again on Ifit's behalf - Has anyone who has obtained Clubmark found it to be beneficial to their club?

[NeilC]

SO - I'll ask again on Ifit's behalf - Has anyone who has obtained Clubmark found it to be beneficial to their club?

Yes and no. At the cricket club where I coach colts it was essential in order to be eligible for various funding schemes (£10k-300k). These schemes usually came down from the governing body (ECB). In all other respects it has made no difference, parents either don't know about it or aren't bothered. As an O-club we are officially "working towards" Clubmark - as yet the lack of this status has made no difference to anything we do. It may in the future, but if I was that good at predicting future trends I'd be in a different profession.

[guest]

Mrs H. wrote:
SO - I'll ask again on Ifit's behalf - Has anyone who has obtained Clubmark found it to be beneficial to their club?

... and NeilC commented on financial benefits! Hopefully ifit meant more than just material benefits. Maybe some clubs will find that working towards 'good practice' will bring other benfits ... and before anyone casts doubt on what I'm saying how about these for starters:
> having a qualified coach (preferably more than one) who
> put on some coaching sessions for the members
Some clubs don't even do that! Others put on coaching without qualified coaches so the sessions can't be registered and covered by BOF insurance - those are just some examples of good practice which Clubmark is about.

[Mrs H.]

Yet again you are dealing with hypertheticals not actual examples! Why not let the clubs speak for themselves instead of doing it for them.

I strongly suspect that all the clubs who have club mark were doing all that coaching stuff before hand - anyway!

Neil said it benefitted his cricket club!

[PorkyFatBoy]

... and before anyone casts doubt on what I'm saying how about these for starters:
> having a qualified coach (preferably more than one) who
> put on some coaching sessions for the members
Some clubs don't even do that!

Yep, we don't. If BOF would like to pay for someone else to do all my home improvements, decorating, gardening, DIY, etc., and pay for me to take a few days unpaid leave in order to organise some coaching events, then I'll do them.

Unfortunately, that amount would probably cover the costs of half a dozen RDOs, which is probably why we don't organise the coaching events.

[HOCOLITE]

... If BOF would like to pay for someone else to do all my home improvements, decorating, gardening, DIY, etc., and pay for me to take a few days unpaid leave in order to organise some coaching events, then I'll do them.

Really do you do all that Porky Mrs PFB must keep you on your toes. My other half doesn't do any of those if he can help it, he spends his time O ing or doing O matters on the computer. If any of those get done it's down to me, and I work(not full time), feed the family and do some O coaching..... I think I'm going wrong somewhere. If you have some spare time perhaps you'd like to do some of those things for me

[HOCOLITE]

It seems Clubmark is very big in cricket. They were talking to a Worcs CC ex player this morning and he was talking about his work with juniors and he mentioned Clubmark and it showing that all the right procedures had been applied.

[ifititches]

only just had a chance to come back to this, over a whole month on! Been interesting to see the comments though (does anyone know if G has got out of bed yet?!)

My original, introspective, post was actually sparked by a comment in another discussion about bringing newcomers into the sport. I was struck by the apparent irony (i'm sure not missed by others) of a poster commenting that the success of MADO had been achieved without a mention of Clubmark.

That was ironic to me because both had actually happened in the same club, run by the same committee, withthe projects running complementary courses, and with the Clubmark logo on the website!

I also knew, as Mrs H says, that she had used it on grant applications, albeit without recognition, but that another major successful club had recently told me that they were going ahead with Clubmark, because they'd realised it would otherwise cut them off from important sources of funding. (I'd also been asked to help our local athletics club with it, for similar reasons)

So I thought it was time to revisit the philosophy behind Clubmark again, as things have definitely moved on.

I guess, in answer to some of the queries above, I'd firstly say that I personally wouldn't be prepared to coach in a club that hadn't elected to work towards Clubmark. Since I've helped organise most of the coaching over last two to three years, getting me on board may be seen as a plus point for Clubmark

Secondly, although I have my own personal and professional reasons for saying the bit above, I also know I'm not alone in feeling this way (through conversations that I've had with others who don't post here).So other clubs could gain coaches if they started this process

Thirdly, Clubmark has given me a good framework to hang the junior coaching programme on, as it's given us some challenging targets, which gives opportunities for more coaches, and we have a small flock of them now coming through , which feels GREAT. So again, I suspect it's more likely to bring coaches into orienteering than drive them away,.

Fourthly it's there for those parents who have a major concern about issues of good coaching practice and child protection, but whose voices are sometimes only heard when something has gone wrong. This group are as of much value to the sport as those of us ( including me) who embrace adventure without such a large voice in our heads about those concerns, but they go elsewhere if those concerns aren't addressed.

And finally, things have moved on since my March post , and I think we've come to a way forward in sustainability terms. I've been helped in that not only by hearing what has happened in other clubs who've gone through Clubmark,but also because I've had such great support from within the club, and because of the MADO initiative which has brought in another wave of new faces and potential future HOC members.

I'd say, start the process, even if you don't jump all the hurdles as quickly as you'd like, you'll soon find yourself half-way round the track....

[Blanka]

itititches, it's really interesting reading your comments re Clubmark given that we (as a club) discussed it a while back and concluded that we didn't feel the need to strive towards Clubmark just yet, with a view of revisiting the discussion perhaps in the future when it became evident that as a club we were missing out/being disadvantaged by not having the accreditation.

So I'm interested in a few of your comments:

I guess, in answer to some of the queries above, I'd firstly say that I personally wouldn't be prepared to coach in a club that hadn't elected to work towards Clubmark.

I also know I'm not alone in feeling this way (through conversations that I've had with others who don't post here)

I would be really interested in hearing the reasons behind that approach (if you don't mind, of course) because I have been frequently involved in sorting out coaches for out club's junior coaching sessions and have had no problems because of the club not being pro-Clubmark. But perhaps the coaches wouldn't tell me this outright so it would be interesting to see whether any of your reasons for not coaching for a non-Clubmark club might be applicable to some of our coaches...

Thirdly, Clubmark has given me a good framework to hang the junior coaching programme on, as it's given us some challenging targets, which gives opportunities for more coaches, and we have a small flock of them now coming through , which feels GREAT. So again, I suspect it's more likely to bring coaches into orienteering than drive them away,.

Yes, I can understand that's a good reason for going for Clubmark but what if you already have an extensive framework of a 'junior section' of the club on which coaching and other activities are based? Is it still worth the effort to go for Clubmark? (I am not saying yet or no I am just trying to get some discussion going).

And we also have an up-and-coming flock of trainers who are keen to qualify to the next level onwards.

Fourthly it's there for those parents who have a major concern about issues of good coaching practice and child protection, but whose voices are sometimes only heard when something has gone wrong. This group are as of much value to the sport as those of us ( including me) who embrace adventure without such a large voice in our heads about those concerns, but they go elsewhere if those concerns aren't addressed.

I guess I can't argue with that!

another major successful club had recently told me that they were going ahead with Clubmark, because they'd realised it would otherwise cut them off from important sources of funding. (I'd also been asked to help our local athletics club with it, for similar reasons)

These are the sorts of things I was thinking of when I said we weren't going to go for the Clubmark until there was obvious disadvantage in not having it. I still haven't come across anywhere where they said: no we're not giving you this money until you have clubmark, so it'd be helpful if I knew where it might actually happen. Do you know of specific funding bodies etc. who might have issues with 'no Clubmark'? Maybe you can PM or email (blanka AT drongo.org.uk) me if you don't want to post specifics on here?

Blanka