find an attack point...
take a compass bearing...
pace count...
is this all outdated? is this what we should be teaching juniors in order to hone future world champions?
Bearing in mind that a recent world champion doesn't use a compass and has most likely never pace counted in his life, should there be an overhaul in what is taught/advised?
after coaching in sweden for two weeks recently I found it better to leave out a lot of stuff that i had drilled into me as a junior; Its been a learning experience for me too...
at the o-ringen, the people who used a 'total map contact' approach to the races were those who succeeded. those who reverted to attack point then 300m compass bearing and pace counting inevitably took long times... the weaknesses in RELYING on these techniques are obviously going to be exposed to greater extent in sweden than in the UK - however i think that by teaching a full map contact style of orienteering from the beginning, juniors will be better equipped to cope with all styles of terrain in the future. if they learn from an early age how to 'run with the map' instead of 'running looking at a compass' it will become second nature.
Only 3 years ago i was coaching on a start weekend in scotland where the kids were expected to complete a 'quantitive' test of 4-6 600m bearings through forest to see how accurately they could follow a bearing. what a waste of time. how the scandi's would have laughed!
Not sure what the situation is now...
anyone got any thoughts on what i've written? looking forward to some debate (although i aplogise in advance if i am not very involved as i am only getting to a computer about once a week at the moment if i am lucky!)
Ben R
a new approach?
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gotta agree with you ben, I think total map contact would be a far more suitable base to a strong technical orienteer than anything else (although i believe there is still quite a lot of emphasis to be placed on having a suitable AP for every control) and it would be much easier to build compass & pacing on top of this than the other way round. Obviously this is a bit trickier in britain as not everyone has areas which you could survive on without compass but the only way to become a good orienteer is to continue to test yourself and learn from different terrains and the techniques that go along with them.
I think the good analogy we were told is to try and give people as many tools as possible at their disposal to use when orienteering, try and get these all as second nature so that they can be used when they best fit the situation. obviously compass bearing & pacing would be some of these tools.
personally i've orienteered without a compass (and i'm a thumb compass person anyway) quite a few times this year (in training and races) in an attempt to improve map reading & contact and work on what is always a problem personally - concentration. Been done in good terrain too, achlean & roseisle (on contour only) for instance. On analysis afterwards main mistakes were concentration ones rather than technique. But i have never been a fan of bearings and pacing (on our coaching course last week one of the exercises set out was compass & pacing one and i hated it and wasnt a happy bunny!).
I think the good analogy we were told is to try and give people as many tools as possible at their disposal to use when orienteering, try and get these all as second nature so that they can be used when they best fit the situation. obviously compass bearing & pacing would be some of these tools.
personally i've orienteered without a compass (and i'm a thumb compass person anyway) quite a few times this year (in training and races) in an attempt to improve map reading & contact and work on what is always a problem personally - concentration. Been done in good terrain too, achlean & roseisle (on contour only) for instance. On analysis afterwards main mistakes were concentration ones rather than technique. But i have never been a fan of bearings and pacing (on our coaching course last week one of the exercises set out was compass & pacing one and i hated it and wasnt a happy bunny!).
“Success is 99% failure� -- Soichiro Honda
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brooner - [nope] cartel
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I think there are two different issues here.
One is learning the full range of techniques that you can use. The other is applying them. I remember Nick Lightfoot and Julian Birkinshaw emphasising this on the tours they used to coach on back in the late 80's/early 90's. They talked about a three stage process: fundamental skills, applied skills, racing skills.
Fundamentals were things like reading the map (!), taking bearings, pacing etc. Applied skills were using those fundamentals to navigate optimally (aiming off, traffic lighting, attack points etc.). Racing was things like mental prep. etc.
Continuous map contact (map reading) is an essential skill, and in some areas is the optimal skill to use. Compass and pacing are also essential skills, and are optimal in other areas. I remember Yvette telling a coaching conference how she spent a lot of time practising taking and running on bearings in the Reading area whilst preparing for WOC in Germany, and how her efficiency and accuracy enabled her to catch the woman in front of her in the Classic and go on to medal.
What we should be teaching our juniors is the full range of skills/techniques, on which they can then learn to build their orienteering. Some will be more suited to one style than another, but you've got to be able to use all/any style depending on the terrain if you're going to be a real master.
So, IMO teaching one skill at the expense of another would be a mistake, whether that means continuous map contact at the expense of being able to use a compass, or precise compass work at the expense of map reading.
On your specific example, I do agree on the information that you have provided that following 600m bearings accurately is a waste of time, especially at that age. I can't recall a time when I've had to do even half that distance in a race. On the other hand, doing an exercise like that might teach a few things, like how difficult such bearings are, are they actually worthwhile over that distance, how unreliable they are (the compass has inherent inaccuracies which an orienteer needs to be beware of), do you have any tendencies (consistent veering to one side or another which will show up better over longer distances) etc. etc. Often it's better to learn that practically than be told.
So - it all depends on the context, but generally I'd say that not learning to be proficient in those skills can only inhibit you in the long term.
One is learning the full range of techniques that you can use. The other is applying them. I remember Nick Lightfoot and Julian Birkinshaw emphasising this on the tours they used to coach on back in the late 80's/early 90's. They talked about a three stage process: fundamental skills, applied skills, racing skills.
Fundamentals were things like reading the map (!), taking bearings, pacing etc. Applied skills were using those fundamentals to navigate optimally (aiming off, traffic lighting, attack points etc.). Racing was things like mental prep. etc.
Continuous map contact (map reading) is an essential skill, and in some areas is the optimal skill to use. Compass and pacing are also essential skills, and are optimal in other areas. I remember Yvette telling a coaching conference how she spent a lot of time practising taking and running on bearings in the Reading area whilst preparing for WOC in Germany, and how her efficiency and accuracy enabled her to catch the woman in front of her in the Classic and go on to medal.
What we should be teaching our juniors is the full range of skills/techniques, on which they can then learn to build their orienteering. Some will be more suited to one style than another, but you've got to be able to use all/any style depending on the terrain if you're going to be a real master.
So, IMO teaching one skill at the expense of another would be a mistake, whether that means continuous map contact at the expense of being able to use a compass, or precise compass work at the expense of map reading.
On your specific example, I do agree on the information that you have provided that following 600m bearings accurately is a waste of time, especially at that age. I can't recall a time when I've had to do even half that distance in a race. On the other hand, doing an exercise like that might teach a few things, like how difficult such bearings are, are they actually worthwhile over that distance, how unreliable they are (the compass has inherent inaccuracies which an orienteer needs to be beware of), do you have any tendencies (consistent veering to one side or another which will show up better over longer distances) etc. etc. Often it's better to learn that practically than be told.
So - it all depends on the context, but generally I'd say that not learning to be proficient in those skills can only inhibit you in the long term.
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awk - god
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But i have never been a fan of bearings and pacing (on our coaching course last week one of the exercises set out was compass & pacing one and i hated it and wasnt a happy bunny!).
I do agree, but I work on the premise that usually the stuff I hate the most is the stuff I'm weakest at (that's why I hate it), and therefore I probably need to do it.
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awk - god
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I completely agree after competing in the O-ringen..."total map contact" was definitely the key to having a good run each day, and lack of this is what I think was my major downfall in the first 2 days!
I want to walk up the side of the mountain, I want to walk down the other side of the mountain. I want to swim in the river, lie in the sun. I want to try being nice to everyone.
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rosalind - addict
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Yes Kent Olsson was telling us how he never used a compass any more because his map-reading technique is so accurate that he doesn't need one.
Wonder when I can be that confident??
Wonder when I can be that confident??
I want to walk up the side of the mountain, I want to walk down the other side of the mountain. I want to swim in the river, lie in the sun. I want to try being nice to everyone.
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rosalind - addict
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My experience as someone still pretty new to "serious" orienteering is that there are two levels of skill required.
Firstly you have a collection of techniques and practices that will allow you to know where you are and get to where you want to be - map contact, running on bearings, traffic light system etc..
Secondly, and much harder I think, is pulling all those techniques together into an overall feel for the terrain and how to deal with it, given your own strengths and weaknesses.
Where I have done best, I have had a clear mental picture of the terrain and confidence in the best ways to get me round it. Where I have not done so well I have been more mechanically applying such things as pace counting or taking bearings. A great deal of the coaching material and examples out there are about the first level of skill - and I suspect the wider and deeper range of those skills you have the better. The true greats, though, I suspect have tons of the second level skill -they know where they are, apply techniques appropriately and make the rest of us look like idiots, even if they do not use all the available skills (e.g. not using compass)
The thing I would love to know is how to work on that second level skill. I know how to get better at the "techniques" - pulling it all together seems like a "black art" sometimes.
Firstly you have a collection of techniques and practices that will allow you to know where you are and get to where you want to be - map contact, running on bearings, traffic light system etc..
Secondly, and much harder I think, is pulling all those techniques together into an overall feel for the terrain and how to deal with it, given your own strengths and weaknesses.
Where I have done best, I have had a clear mental picture of the terrain and confidence in the best ways to get me round it. Where I have not done so well I have been more mechanically applying such things as pace counting or taking bearings. A great deal of the coaching material and examples out there are about the first level of skill - and I suspect the wider and deeper range of those skills you have the better. The true greats, though, I suspect have tons of the second level skill -they know where they are, apply techniques appropriately and make the rest of us look like idiots, even if they do not use all the available skills (e.g. not using compass)
The thing I would love to know is how to work on that second level skill. I know how to get better at the "techniques" - pulling it all together seems like a "black art" sometimes.
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chrisecurtis - red
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essential skills - pacing? i just don't think it's worth it. i've never used it. i don't know many elite orienteers who do. it takes your mind off other things like the map, and in some terrain is completely inaccurate anyway.
doing lots of orienteering on different scales, reading all the map detail - this gives you a feel for 'distance judgement'. Having a tangible sense of distance covered seems to work for me - this applied with traffic lights - slowing down slightly into the control circle, visualising the positioning of the feature and the land/vegetation around it; sweeping my vision instead of peering down a tunnel...
I agree that compass skills are well worthwhile learning, but perhaps it should be emphasised that the compass is only a secondary navigation aid - you can be world champion without a compass but not without a map!
Perhaps there could be a stage in an orienteers development (M/W14-16?) where those in the start squad are introduced (not forced, the choice should be theirs!) to a 'map contact' idea of orienteering? A couple of exercises on a weekend would be enough - perhaps a control picking course on a highly technical area without a compass? A useful exercise that we did with SCOTJOS in Goteborg was a traffic lights course where there was a larger circle marked on the map around a control circle (like that well known relocation exercise) however the aim was for the athlete to choose an attack point from within the circle (there was of course tons of detail) and then slow down into the control, visualising the lie of the land and an image of the control circle itself.
doing lots of orienteering on different scales, reading all the map detail - this gives you a feel for 'distance judgement'. Having a tangible sense of distance covered seems to work for me - this applied with traffic lights - slowing down slightly into the control circle, visualising the positioning of the feature and the land/vegetation around it; sweeping my vision instead of peering down a tunnel...
I agree that compass skills are well worthwhile learning, but perhaps it should be emphasised that the compass is only a secondary navigation aid - you can be world champion without a compass but not without a map!
Perhaps there could be a stage in an orienteers development (M/W14-16?) where those in the start squad are introduced (not forced, the choice should be theirs!) to a 'map contact' idea of orienteering? A couple of exercises on a weekend would be enough - perhaps a control picking course on a highly technical area without a compass? A useful exercise that we did with SCOTJOS in Goteborg was a traffic lights course where there was a larger circle marked on the map around a control circle (like that well known relocation exercise) however the aim was for the athlete to choose an attack point from within the circle (there was of course tons of detail) and then slow down into the control, visualising the lie of the land and an image of the control circle itself.
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bendover - addict
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bendover wrote:essential skills - pacing? i just don't think it's worth it. i've never used it. i don't know many elite orienteers who do. it takes your mind off other things like the map, and in some terrain is completely inaccurate anyway.
Yup, essential skill. Possibly not for elite (I wouldn't know, as I've never been one), but certainly on the way there. It's fine when you've developed that unerring sense of scale which never fails you but having a back up during the learning curve is extremely useful. Particularly when visibility is low, and sense of scale is extremely difficult to maintain. It can also be useful when things go wrong. Anyway, if pacing is taking your mind off the map you're both using it at the wrong time (i.e. when there is sufficient detail on the map by which to navigate) and haven't sufficiently practised it - it should be so instinctive that it doesn't distract you from the other skills. And one of the skills of pacing is that you know it's weaknesses, and know when it's worth using. It's only inaccurate in terrain if you haven't practised it, and don't know how different types of terrain affect your orienteering.
I'd reckon that you'd hardly use pacing in Scandinavian style terrain - I've certainly found that. Not having it in your toobox in continental terrain is to my mind simply leaving out a potentially very useful tool, and one that I've seen used to good effect by elite orienteers in the past (and not used to bad effect too!).
I don't think there has ever been any question of that, and I don't know of a single coach who thinks otherwise.I agree that compass skills are well worthwhile learning, but perhaps it should be emphasised that the compass is only a secondary navigation aid
I'm obviously out of touch here - every squad or tour I've ever worked with at club, regional and national level has always put map reading at the top of the list, in particular the sort of visualisation you are talking about, and has included the sort of exercises you outline, which are standards. Have they changed so dramatically in the past few years that these are not taught any more? There are times when compass work has been given more emphasis, but primarily because it's surprising how often juniors used to come on tour and be completely incompetent or extremely slow with them - not helpful when you're learning the ropes in Scandinavian terrain.Perhaps there could be a stage in an orienteers development (M/W14-16?) where those in the start squad are introduced (not forced, the choice should be theirs!) to a 'map contact' idea of orienteering?.....
Don't get me wrong, I'm a strong believer in continuous map contact - it's the style I've felt most comfortable with for years (probably since before you were born!), but it's not the only approach. Just as not every elite orienteer, or indeed world champion, competes without a compass! Horses for courses - different styles suit different people and different forests.
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awk - god
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Pacing & compass & map contact........ all very important but not neccessarily at the same time / same place... take out here in LTU for example... in general competitions planners are very keen on using what I call Yorkshire pits as control sites. I can moan as much as I like but they are used. Map contact isn't so important in this instance as all you have is a white bit of paper... compass / direction are... and distance judgement (pacing or instinct). But move over to Scotland & Docharn and you could throw the compass away if you wanted too... using the map will get you round perfectly ok.... but use the compass where it's needed and you'll get round more than ok.
I seem to recall that Yvette said she paced a lot?????
I seem to recall that Yvette said she paced a lot?????
- gross2004
a new approach?
having just come back from the SCOTJOS tour bendover was a coach on i agree with his view . This was my first time in scandanavia and i found that keeping map contact was essential because if you lost it for even just a short space of time you were lost as there was few line features to relocate off and the complex contour details could soon be made to fit if you wanted ! I don't find pacing particulary useful but then if coaches teach everybody in their squad how to do it they can choose themselves wether they want to use it or not, like all techniques.
"pain is temporary, quitting lasts for ever" -lance armsrong http://www.roxburghreivers.org.uk. harvester 06
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andrew T - yellow
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From my limited experiences I would agree with those who say that the importance of specific techniques you use is very dependent on the terrain you are running in. Areas with lots of contour and map detail you should be able to check off features that you pass on the route you've chosen to the control, without need for the compass. Although I recall some people focussing on the WOC this year trying to perfect the 'straight is great' technique - wouldn't that be a bit more compass usage, although perhaps only for initial/check of direction?
but many of the southern areas I've run on can be flat and featureless between paths, apart from that point feature you're aiming for, and then a compass can be quite handy. the extensive path networks you find down here certainly mean less compass use. Pacing can also be very handy on this sort of terrain, especially when deciding to cut into the forest to the control off that long straight path you've been running along...
I reckon the emphasis should be on map contact - after all the map is the primary navigation tool. compass and pacing are there as backups?? - use when necessary but perhaps essential in some terrain?? I'm sure Pasi would argue against that, as will probably some of you...
but many of the southern areas I've run on can be flat and featureless between paths, apart from that point feature you're aiming for, and then a compass can be quite handy. the extensive path networks you find down here certainly mean less compass use. Pacing can also be very handy on this sort of terrain, especially when deciding to cut into the forest to the control off that long straight path you've been running along...
I reckon the emphasis should be on map contact - after all the map is the primary navigation tool. compass and pacing are there as backups?? - use when necessary but perhaps essential in some terrain?? I'm sure Pasi would argue against that, as will probably some of you...
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distracted - addict
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I'm not going to write a big long spiel, but I think it's important that you can use your compass properly (i.e. as an aid to following where you are on the map). To quote the legend that is Bilbo, if you can run accurately on your compass in any terrain then it turns orienteering into a 1-dimensional problem (i.e. where on the red line are you). Of course, your compass isn't the only thing that you use to keep you on the red line, and nor can it tell you how far along the red line you are - you also need to be following the map, although the definition of 'continuous contact' needs to be very flexible. I'd say that I usually orienteer with continuous map contact, but the level of contact varies between knowing where I am to within 100m (or maybe a lot more than that sometimes) or to within 10m depending on the kind of terrain, whereabouts on a leg I am, etc.
As for teaching compass skills (and pacing), that approach probably dominates in UK because in a lot of the country there isn't much detail to do continuous contact on (Clumber Park???!). It's therefore important that when there is the opportunity (Scandi/Scottish tours, etc.) then map reading is stressed. But as a someone who has formerly hardly used a compass (and often still don't use it maybe as much as I should), I would say that it is important. As for pacing... I would usually claim never to use it, but the last event I ran, I did actually use it due to the extreme provocation of an extremely grim N.Yorks area and a particularly fine example of a Roberts map. So, it does have its uses, but only really as a 'when all else fails' technique.
As for teaching compass skills (and pacing), that approach probably dominates in UK because in a lot of the country there isn't much detail to do continuous contact on (Clumber Park???!). It's therefore important that when there is the opportunity (Scandi/Scottish tours, etc.) then map reading is stressed. But as a someone who has formerly hardly used a compass (and often still don't use it maybe as much as I should), I would say that it is important. As for pacing... I would usually claim never to use it, but the last event I ran, I did actually use it due to the extreme provocation of an extremely grim N.Yorks area and a particularly fine example of a Roberts map. So, it does have its uses, but only really as a 'when all else fails' technique.
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Ed - diehard
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Ed wrote:I think it's important that you can use your compass properly.
Yes it is - to be able to take bearings - but 90 - 95 % of the time you should only be using the compass to oreintate the map fully to north
But what im trying to say (in a rambling fashion ) is that total map contact is better. In orienteering to do well you only need to navigate in a manner which you would do in everyday life - pick a route on the map and stick to it - if bearings help then fine, they may be needed depending on the terrain, but I have found again that bearings take time to do
Im not saying that teaching kids this stuff is not good, but I think that they should also be taught to use the best technique in a situation, i.e. to prevent them from using a technique (e.g. bearing) when other techniques would be quicker, or using may not have been neccessary to get from A to B.
Its the same for pacing - it takes time and its not always neccessary. Total map contact doesnt need pacing. From what i've seen, if you're following where you are on the map you will 99% of the time never go wrong. That's in more technical terrain. If its running down a track through forest, and at somepoint you have to turn of into the forest, either check the features on either side of the track to locate yourself, or stop being a lazy arse and get off the track
It all depends on the terrain and situation - for example if it was a pit out in the middle of nowhere on a moor then yeah ok you have to use compass+pacing but in other less demanding situations check before you use them - in the words of the well known TV bank advert - there is an easier way - and it could even get you results. Everyone's a winner.
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Peter B wrote:Ed wrote:I think it's important that you can use your compass properly (i.e. as an aid to following where you are on the map).
Yes it is - to be able to take bearings - but 90 - 95 % of the time you should only be using the compass to oreintate the map fully to north
you cut my sentence off short - the parenthetical bit is important! What I said is that you need to be able to use your compass properly, but that you can't navigate by compass alone - i.e. good compass technique (IMHO) requires that you are using it in conjunction with the map. I never mentioned anything about bearings (which, incidentally, I never use in the setting the compass sense - even with a Spectra I very rarely use the colours and dots)
That's why I like thumb compasses - every time you look at your compass or your map, the other one is staring you in the face. Even when I'm carrying a baseplate (usually when I've broken my thumb compass and had to borrow someone else's!) I carry it in the same hand as my map, and use it as I do a thumb compass (i.e. as something that points north to enable me to orientate the map).
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Ed - diehard
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