I'm very pleased this topic is being discussed as it is very relevant at the present time. All of the views presented are valid and need to be taken into account. No-one wants to put off volunteers but there is insufficient volunteer time in some regions to put on major events. I don't think that we should use "professionals" in order to try to improve quality but only when volunteers will not be available, usually because the main jobs at major events are so time consuming.
I think the way forward is for clubs to continue to put on local and maybe regional events, depending upon their resources, but that the main jobs at major events should be offered on a fee basis - not to "employ" people, but to contract out the service.
The event fee is a small part of the total cost of orienteering - except for large families, maybe kids could be free - and a lot less than many other leisure activities.
In summary, I think it's great for people to put on events by volunteering when they can, but I think that it's unrealistic to insist that we have to rely on volunteers.
paid 'jobs for the boys' in Orienteering
Moderators: [nope] cartel, team nopesport
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It's all very well to say that we can pay to have something done "professionally" if there are no willing volunteers (or capable volunteers) to take jobs on and the "professional" does a professional job. But, what about when it is a big event and willing and capable volunteers are turned away in favour of paying another person to do it, with the excuse that it is a big event with big entry fees, so we might as well pay people? It happens.
- Guest
I thought I might generate a little bit of a debate on this subject. I do feel quite strongly about this especially in a couple of areas – I suppose IT based as I work in that field but I’m sure it applies to other areas.
The new BOF website is being done by an Orienteer from the East Midlands ( http://www.6prog.org/ ) Vegan Idealistic Programmers Ltd – have a look at their website oh and they also do the noc website http://www.noc-uk.org
Apparently there was a type of tender using local firms to Matlock which were all very expensive before they chose VIP, but If BOF are paying for this site it is not great in my opinion (from a design ,technical graphic and navigation point of view). I know several IT minded people outside of Orienteering who think it poor too, let alone orienteering IT bods. The fact that it is still not finished again is unfortunate.
Im not saying dont pay for this and get a orienteer to do it for nothing but paying an orienteer on the cheap is not the way forward.
Oh and does anybody else find it slow.
I refer other postings about paying does not automatically = quality (in my opinion)
And my real hobby horse
MERCS( http://www.cix.co.uk/~neper/ ) seems to be popping up all over the place at events and doing a fine job, but I offered to do JK2005 IT for SI for zero, nil, nothing (It is a West midlands JK – my region). Instead JK2005 are contracting MERCS at a considerable sum because he is tried and tested. ( do know how much for I think but this is not the proper place to post such info- but it shocked me)
I have now found out that a west midlands region member is being contracted to do the entries (I do not know how much for)
Im doing the JK website for nothing and will be helping these people earn money out of our sport – Don’t get me wrong these people have done a lot for the sport but so have lots of other people. I don’t want paying , I enjoy contributing my skills to orienteering (especially as being injured it is a way I can keep in contact with the sport I have grown up with and put back a bit from many years as a junior) and the skills learnt with SI and the contacts gained now earn me money elsewhere (corporate adventure racing etc working for Sportident UK).
I do not want to upset anybody but am worried about a slippery slope..
We have to be very careful. If we pay more and more for ‘services’ that were once done for free by club members, people will stop volunteering altogether and start tendering…………
The new BOF website is being done by an Orienteer from the East Midlands ( http://www.6prog.org/ ) Vegan Idealistic Programmers Ltd – have a look at their website oh and they also do the noc website http://www.noc-uk.org
Apparently there was a type of tender using local firms to Matlock which were all very expensive before they chose VIP, but If BOF are paying for this site it is not great in my opinion (from a design ,technical graphic and navigation point of view). I know several IT minded people outside of Orienteering who think it poor too, let alone orienteering IT bods. The fact that it is still not finished again is unfortunate.
Im not saying dont pay for this and get a orienteer to do it for nothing but paying an orienteer on the cheap is not the way forward.
Oh and does anybody else find it slow.
I refer other postings about paying does not automatically = quality (in my opinion)
And my real hobby horse
MERCS( http://www.cix.co.uk/~neper/ ) seems to be popping up all over the place at events and doing a fine job, but I offered to do JK2005 IT for SI for zero, nil, nothing (It is a West midlands JK – my region). Instead JK2005 are contracting MERCS at a considerable sum because he is tried and tested. ( do know how much for I think but this is not the proper place to post such info- but it shocked me)
I have now found out that a west midlands region member is being contracted to do the entries (I do not know how much for)
Im doing the JK website for nothing and will be helping these people earn money out of our sport – Don’t get me wrong these people have done a lot for the sport but so have lots of other people. I don’t want paying , I enjoy contributing my skills to orienteering (especially as being injured it is a way I can keep in contact with the sport I have grown up with and put back a bit from many years as a junior) and the skills learnt with SI and the contacts gained now earn me money elsewhere (corporate adventure racing etc working for Sportident UK).
I do not want to upset anybody but am worried about a slippery slope..
We have to be very careful. If we pay more and more for ‘services’ that were once done for free by club members, people will stop volunteering altogether and start tendering…………
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stodge - blue
- Posts: 411
- Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 12:02 pm
- Location: Milford
Totally agree with u Stodge!
(wellcome to Nopesport BTW, though perhaps I'm not the best to greet you)
G told me a figure for what Mercs being paid, which I found astonishing! I'm not insulting Mike Napier's good work but why oh why weren't chasers SI team not asked first. Know you could do just as good a job and probably wouldn't be paid for it cause you just want to be involved. Hows foot by the way? HOC probably have some very capable computer people too.
Jobs for the boys- yes anything (within reason) during holidays for a bit of cash to help a student! But I see making payments for putting on an O event causing a few problems, well at least initially.
(wellcome to Nopesport BTW, though perhaps I'm not the best to greet you)
G told me a figure for what Mercs being paid, which I found astonishing! I'm not insulting Mike Napier's good work but why oh why weren't chasers SI team not asked first. Know you could do just as good a job and probably wouldn't be paid for it cause you just want to be involved. Hows foot by the way? HOC probably have some very capable computer people too.
Jobs for the boys- yes anything (within reason) during holidays for a bit of cash to help a student! But I see making payments for putting on an O event causing a few problems, well at least initially.
- Little Rob
My comments about professional services not alyway being professional standards were tinged by an experience some years ago when the JK came to Yorkshire, which has echoes with Stodge's comments.
Guisecliff was used for the training day, a great area in my own club's patch. Tenders were requested for mapping the area, and I was asked. Knowing the area, I put in a realistic one, but still on the cheap side. I was actually told it was expensive - it was the only one given from someone who knew the area. The contract went to a recognised out of region 'professional' who not only put in a tender at 70% of mine, but did so in the knowledge thet they were going to need to pay for accommodation in the area to do it (they stayed B&B). Basically, I suppose it was a loss leader and they desperately wanted the work. Their tender would have hardly covered the accommodation. (IIncidentally, I don't think they operate still, not suprising considering the quality of some of their other maps as well).
The result was a map that was downright appalling: no care, no sense of long term responsibility, simply a job done to a price, you pay peanuts you get monkeys. My club had no say in this. We 'benefited' from the event with a map that was virtually unusable, and our volunteer mapping team had to effectively go out and remap it from scratch to get it up to some sort of reasonable standard for a 'real' event (parts of it, it was actually easier to go back to the base map and start again).
I continued to work as a volunteer on this for t he benefit of my club. But it has certainly coloured my view on what I volunteer for beyond.
Guisecliff was used for the training day, a great area in my own club's patch. Tenders were requested for mapping the area, and I was asked. Knowing the area, I put in a realistic one, but still on the cheap side. I was actually told it was expensive - it was the only one given from someone who knew the area. The contract went to a recognised out of region 'professional' who not only put in a tender at 70% of mine, but did so in the knowledge thet they were going to need to pay for accommodation in the area to do it (they stayed B&B). Basically, I suppose it was a loss leader and they desperately wanted the work. Their tender would have hardly covered the accommodation. (IIncidentally, I don't think they operate still, not suprising considering the quality of some of their other maps as well).
The result was a map that was downright appalling: no care, no sense of long term responsibility, simply a job done to a price, you pay peanuts you get monkeys. My club had no say in this. We 'benefited' from the event with a map that was virtually unusable, and our volunteer mapping team had to effectively go out and remap it from scratch to get it up to some sort of reasonable standard for a 'real' event (parts of it, it was actually easier to go back to the base map and start again).
I continued to work as a volunteer on this for t he benefit of my club. But it has certainly coloured my view on what I volunteer for beyond.
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awk - god
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napier is basically a rich man sitting in his download motorhome with his bags of cash and 2 beautiful W21s
but he is the best probably at what he does so maybe its worth paying him a lot
(by the way if you notice a raise in entry fees, you'll now know why)
but he is the best probably at what he does so maybe its worth paying him a lot
(by the way if you notice a raise in entry fees, you'll now know why)
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rob f - yellow
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- Joined: Wed Feb 04, 2004 8:14 pm
- Location: Manchester
stodge wrote:
In his defence from what I heard, BOF had but quite a lot of restrictions on how the website looked. I think the main one was that the website wasn't specifically the BOF website but more of an introduction to Orienteering in the UK with links to BOF and the clubs etc. Personally I prefer the lack of graphics it allows the page to load quicker and allow me to get the information I want quickly and efficiently. I hate long intros(I see jamie stevenson has got rid of the one he had on his page) they just get in the way and annoy you.
Mike Napier is the best and has a history of providing an good service at large events. Since 2000 he has done, 3 BOC relays, 3 BOC individuals, 2 JK relays, 1 JK (both individual days) and 1 BUSA. There must be a reason for this, simple whenever he is involved with the result for an event they are quick, efficient with very few glitches.
Casting my mind back to the past few events where Mike has not been involved, the individual days of the JK, if I remember correct I was standing at the results board on day 1 at about 2pm, the results currently showing were those who had finished before about 12noon. A few minutes later updated results were displayed, they were apparently printed at 1pm.
How can it take an hour for someone to press print at the download area then walk 30 metres to display them. Needless to say when Mike was involved with the relay the results were flying up almost as fast as they came in. And anyone forgotten the mediocre results service last weekend at 0007, especially at the relay where most of the results didn't go up until after the winning teams had finished.
Not so long ago we had the British at Simonside, anyone remember what that day was like. I can still remember Mike and his team working to get everyone downloaded in the wind, rain and mud after the tent they had been given had almost blown away. Then driving home to find the results including splits already up on the web before I arrived. That is why it is worth paying a professional who has been perfecting the software for years and can deliver almost regardless of the circumstances. This is the quality of service that everyone else should be aiming for.
And with such high levels of reliability is it any surprise that for doing the commentary at the JK and 0007 MCs Pooley and Monro asked to use Mike's system. (correct me if I am wrong chris)
The new BOF website is being done by an Orienteer from the East Midlands ( http://www.6prog.org/ ) Vegan Idealistic Programmers Ltd – have a look at their website oh and they also do the NOC website http://www.noc-uk.org
If BOF are paying for this site it is not great in my opinion (from a design ,technical graphic and navigation point of view).
In his defence from what I heard, BOF had but quite a lot of restrictions on how the website looked. I think the main one was that the website wasn't specifically the BOF website but more of an introduction to Orienteering in the UK with links to BOF and the clubs etc. Personally I prefer the lack of graphics it allows the page to load quicker and allow me to get the information I want quickly and efficiently. I hate long intros(I see jamie stevenson has got rid of the one he had on his page) they just get in the way and annoy you.
MERCS( http://www.cix.co.uk/~neper/ ) seems to be popping up all over the place at events and doing a fine job, but I offered to do JK2005 IT for SI for zero, nil, nothing (It is a West midlands JK – my region). Instead JK2005 are contracting MERCS at a considerable sum because he is tried and tested. ( do know how much for I think but this is not the proper place to post such info- but it shocked me)
Mike Napier is the best and has a history of providing an good service at large events. Since 2000 he has done, 3 BOC relays, 3 BOC individuals, 2 JK relays, 1 JK (both individual days) and 1 BUSA. There must be a reason for this, simple whenever he is involved with the result for an event they are quick, efficient with very few glitches.
Casting my mind back to the past few events where Mike has not been involved, the individual days of the JK, if I remember correct I was standing at the results board on day 1 at about 2pm, the results currently showing were those who had finished before about 12noon. A few minutes later updated results were displayed, they were apparently printed at 1pm.
How can it take an hour for someone to press print at the download area then walk 30 metres to display them. Needless to say when Mike was involved with the relay the results were flying up almost as fast as they came in. And anyone forgotten the mediocre results service last weekend at 0007, especially at the relay where most of the results didn't go up until after the winning teams had finished.
Not so long ago we had the British at Simonside, anyone remember what that day was like. I can still remember Mike and his team working to get everyone downloaded in the wind, rain and mud after the tent they had been given had almost blown away. Then driving home to find the results including splits already up on the web before I arrived. That is why it is worth paying a professional who has been perfecting the software for years and can deliver almost regardless of the circumstances. This is the quality of service that everyone else should be aiming for.
And with such high levels of reliability is it any surprise that for doing the commentary at the JK and 0007 MCs Pooley and Monro asked to use Mike's system. (correct me if I am wrong chris)
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David - white
- Posts: 57
- Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2003 3:47 pm
- Location: I am: In my mind... and in reality...
a bit off topic but in same area as awk's comments on maps at the lowest cost, i believe most of the maps up at the N.O.C. were put out to tender, and as it was sportscotland funding it all, many of the maps that were produced were not of the highest standard (and this is sometimes just the simplest features like massive crags that you'd seriously hurt yourself if you happened upon it!), purely because they were done by the person offering the cheapest quote. Mapping I think is something in particular where you tend to get what you pay for and as they are key to the sport you certainly shouldn't go for the cheapest option!
“Success is 99% failure� -- Soichiro Honda
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brooner - [nope] cartel
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David wrote:. And anyone forgotten the mediocre results service last weekend at 0007, especially at the relay where most of the results didn't go up until after the winning teams had finished.
I think it's a bit ungracious to be critical of the service last weekend BOK put on the BROC at less than two month's notice - I seriously wonder if any other club could have done it - and the work that Mike Forrest puts into the sport has to be seen to be believed. The middle distance races were oriiginally planned as a low key affair before the FCC final materialised - I just hope BOK and NGOC made piles of money out of the whole thing. (No, I'm not a member of either club or even the same region)
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Mrs H. - nope godmother
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Where do we draw the line? If we go 'professional' so to speak. Are the people manning road crossings, running the start, car parking etc who give up two thirds of their Sunday (or more) at least not equally entitled to be paid for their time. If we adopted this approach event fees would rocket sky high. 'Volunteers' doing these jobs may soon become disillusioned knowing fellow members of the club are being paid for their time. Volunteers would then dwindle, costs would rise and the sport would ultimately fail by pricing itself out of the market. To many, a fiver to run through a forest, multiplied 3 or 4 times for a family could be money better spent elsewhere.
- Guest
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