nopesport.com

does make sense, still annoying though - Mats Troeng sums it up best - Let’s face it. Orienteering is, and will be, a sport based on fair play and gentlemen’s agreement. I hope rule 21.3 will be canceled as soon as possible.

I cannot see how cross referring to a device that tells me how far I have run is going to be quicker than using the map. If that's so for me then what possible use is it to the real stars od this sport?

Come on, the rule is just fine and should not be cancelled. It is so easy to use these wrist gps units for cheating. And all route logging can be done with gps loggers without screen. No harm done.

fair play and gentlemen’s agreement, right , just like no one never follows anyone and never runs in a pack?

Jagge wrote:It is so easy to use these wrist gps units for cheating.

I don't believe that it is - have you got a Garmin wrist watch? In my experience they are of no use at all whilst actually Orienteering "out in the field" as it were, other than for logging your route they do not give you any advantage over a proficient Orienteer using just conventional map and compass to navigate with.

Jagge wrote:It is so easy to use these wrist gps units for cheating

In what way? There is no real way in which its more advantageous to use information from your gps watch than to simply use map, compass and ground. Yes, admitedly you can get a compass-type display of the garmin405 but it would take someone familiar with the device a good 7-10s to call it up and then its pretty naff so no benefit at all.

Jagge wrote: fair play and gentlemen’s agreement, right , just like no one never follows anyone and never runs in a pack?

exactly, no one follows. or everyone is trusted not to follow. so why are people no longer trusted to carry a gps watch without trying to use the information to an unfair advantage?

I think that the rule is probably acceptable but surley following say TerryG at a World Cup race is going to be more of an advantage to you than using a gps watch to check how far you've gone etc. ? And how are they going to stop this? Where do they draw the line on how many rules to have?

Silva Surfer wrote:

Jagge wrote:It is so easy to use these wrist gps units for cheating.

I don't believe that it is - have you got a Garmin wrist watch? In my experience they are of no use at all whilst actually Orienteering "out in the field" as it were, other than for logging your route they do not give you any advantage over a proficient Orienteer using just conventional map and compass to navigate with.

I have had Fore 205 since spring 2006. I have had two 205 units and one 305. Currently I have gps units but only two Garmins.

Just let an early starter - or your crooked frind inside organizing group - run the course with fore 305 and ask him to "take splits" = mark controls as wayponts. You have late start, you run with the same device. Use the map mode. If you are uncertain just look at the screen and let it guide you to the control or back on track. It does not make you any faster when you are doing fine, but you can eliminate most of the time loss when uncertain or making mistake. All orienteers do mistakesand have weak moments, even the elite.

Just think of Forssa games WRE, 200 runners, 25 min course, last ones start 3 hours after first ones.

With some units you can scan old map and let the unit show your exact location on the old map. Again it does not make you any faster, but can be used for eliminating time losses.

It is not so difficult to understand IOF had to do this. And why shouldn't we eliminate this cheating possiblily? Like I said, no harm done, we can use simple and cheap gps loggers.

it's still quicker to do the orienteering yourself,

the sort of losers who would cheat and actually benefit are not going to be running world ranking event

Jagge wrote:And all route logging can be done with gps loggers without screen. No harm done.

The problem is that the only GPS I have come across that works well in the forest is the Garmin 205/305/405. As I understand it they have a different chip in them (SiRFStarIII ) that acquires faster and holds on to satellites longer than any other.

If you want a normal GPS unit with this chip you need to go to the GPSMAP® 60Cx & GPSMAP® 60CSx that are around £400 in the UK.

If anyone knows of a logger that uses this chip or works accurately in the dense forest let me know where I can get one.

Jagge wrote:Just let an early starter - or your crooked frind inside organizing group - run the course with fore 305 and ask him to "take splits" = mark controls as wayponts.

Your crooked friends could also have just shown you the map in advance so you could plan your routes. If we believe this is a big problem then orienteering really is in trouble.

Just think of Forssa games WRE, 200 runners, 25 min course, last ones start 3 hours after first ones.

Elite runners at the Forssa games are quarantined - everyone has to be at the start area before the first runner finishes. At least, that was the case when I did it.

I can see how the IOF are thinking though. At some point in the future these devices are going to be powerful enough to actually be useful navigational aids. It seems reasonable to ban their use at WOC/World Cup level at least. If people are carrying Tractrac units then their route will be logged for future analysis anyway.

As a sidenote, I personally find Quickroute really annoying when viewing courses online as it obscures so much map detail. I often find myself wondering why X took such a weird route only to discover after much eyestrain that there's a path underneath the trace. If someone could combine Quickroute and Routegadget functionality they'd be onto a winner.

Cheers,

Patrick

Patrick wrote:I personally find Quickroute really annoying when viewing courses online as it obscures so much map detail.

That's not a problem with quickroute, more the user. when setting it up you can choose the width and colour intensity of the line so that it doesn't obscure too much detail

Paul Frost wrote:If anyone knows of a logger that uses this chip or works accurately in the dense forest let me know where I can get one.

I have been using globalsat bt-335 for 18 months. At least as accurate as garmins and you can easily log 5-days events with 1 sec inerval without having to recharge or download data from the unit. Price here is 60 eur.

Paul Frost wrote:Your crooked friends could also have just shown you the map in advance so you could plan your routes. If we believe this is a big problem then orienteering really is in trouble.

http://www.gt.se/nyheter/1.1570540/ifk- ... r-kartfusk

Nothing seriuos I think, but as you can see anything can happen and one thing can lead to an other.

If we just trust no-one cheats we would need any quarantines. But still we have those. I don't think smuggling maps and toys is not that difficult is somebody really likes to do it. For example your helper could leave the gps units in plastic bag at #1 and you just pick it up there.

At least now if we see someone running screen first we know everything is not ok.

Anyway, some cheating happens for sure but I don't think it is so serious problem. But even if large scale organized cheating does not exist, IOF is not doing wrong if it tries to make cheating resonably difficult and cheater easy to spot.

Paul Frost wrote:If anyone knows of a logger that uses this chip or works accurately in the dense forest let me know where I can get one.

Just do a worldwide search of eBay for "GPS Logger" and you'll find lots of GPS loggers between £30 - £50, many of which have the SiRF star III chipset or the MTK chipset which is reputedly just as good. I have an iBlue 747 with the MTK chipset and this works well. Due to the way that the different chipsets store the data, I believe that it maybe easier to post-process SiRF star III data for use with Routegadget, etc.

I see that the BT-335 has the same SiRFStarIII as the Garmin 205/305/405 so that's good.
It is a bit bulkier and no wrist strap, so carrying it will require some thought and there is no heart rate monitor (which I do refer to, to ensure that I am pushing myself).

Wayward-O wrote:I believe that it maybe easier to post-process SiRF star III data for use with Routegadget, etc.

It depends on which software you use. I love SportTracks for tracking my training etc. and it exports .gpx files which are perfect for RouteGadget. The only problem is that it is not available for the Mac, so I have to run it in a virtual windows setup (Fusion).
I have yet to find a Mac GPS/training package that works as well.

Paul Frost wrote:

Jagge wrote:And all route logging can be done with gps loggers without screen. No harm done.

The problem is that the only GPS I have come across that works well in the forest is the Garmin 205/305/405.
...
If anyone knows of a logger that uses this chip or works accurately in the dense forest let me know where I can get one.

Don't forget that this new rule only applies (for the moment, at least) to events run under the IOF rules - ie. on the elite courses at WREs. So for most of us there's no need to rush out and buy a screenless replacement just yet...