SOL 1

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Re: SOL 1

Postby LostAgain on Fri Apr 24, 2009 12:20 pm

SeanC wrote:Graeme, I'm not suggesting parents checking the map is an alternative to good planning or controlling, but an additional check in case the courses are harder than expected. It's going to happen from time to time. Yes, in the worst case parents might choose to shadow the junior, or take them off the course if that's better than getting demoralised on a course that's too hard.

I thought it was a good tip someone gave me :wink: But it's not something I've seen organisers encouraging.

Never been to a SOL. One day hopefully.


No, No, No......!!
Planners / Controllers must get the Junior Course technicality correct. It is not fro the parents to ensure that the courses have been planned correctly.

There are many reasons why a parent is unable to preview a junior course map. Including differnt starts, start times, NC status,Split starts etc.

Planners / Controllers have to be trusted to get it right. There are good planning guide lines. Getting it wrong can take a huge amount of time and effort to recover the frail confidence of juniors. :evil:
"If A is success in life, then A equals x plus y plus z. Work is x; y is play; and z is keeping your mouth shut" Abraham Lincoln
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Re: SOL 1

Postby SeanC on Fri Apr 24, 2009 2:46 pm

In the next 100 events, will every planner get it right? They should get it right, but will every one?

At the risk of repeating myself, I am not suggesting that parents viewing the map is a replacement for, or an excuse, for planning/controlling that does not follow the guidelines, but an extra confidence measure and a reflection of the reality that mistakes happen.

This would be particularly useful for juniors stepping up a colour for the first time. Even within the guidelines there must be a few shades of orange so to speak.

Would it work if registration/enquiries had copies of the white/yellow/orange/long orange courses for preview by parents who want to check the suitability of courses?
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Re: SOL 1

Postby mharky on Fri Apr 24, 2009 2:53 pm

At lots of events now you get the white and yellow maps at registration rather than at the start; pretty good idea I think, for obvious reasons.
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Re: SOL 1

Postby greywolf on Fri Apr 24, 2009 3:30 pm

SeanC wrote:In the next 100 events, will every planner get it right? They should get it right, but will every one?


Probably not...but that's why we have Controllers... and between them they should be able to get it more or less right everytime, especially at Level 2 events.

Re: shades of orange - not really - remember an Orange course with half the legs at TD2 is still an Orange course, whereas an Orange course with 1 leg at TD4 is Light Green...
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Re: SOL 1

Postby LostAgain on Fri Apr 24, 2009 3:33 pm

SeanC wrote:In the next 100 events, will every planner get it right? They should get it right, but will every one?



I'm suggesting that they bloody well should get it right.

With respect to juniors moving up a colour band. That is a different discussion thread. When my kids move up a colour band I try to shadow them for the first 3 or 4 occasions to soften the blow when they make the inevitable mistakes.

I even on occasions shadow them when they are confident to coach them on technique. But I firmly believe it is the Planners & Controllers responsilbity to get the White - Yellow - Orange technicality correct. This is not rocket science.

Getting this wrong is the biggest problem for keeping young juniors interested in orienteering. This cannot be stressed enough. Many juniors that I know are reluctant orienteers stems from a bad experience from poor planning. There really is no excuse for this.
"If A is success in life, then A equals x plus y plus z. Work is x; y is play; and z is keeping your mouth shut" Abraham Lincoln
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Re: SOL 1

Postby angusmunros on Fri Apr 24, 2009 6:47 pm

You are still missing the point, there should be consistency between the same colour courses at different events - as a parent you don't expect a yellow course to be td3 and a light green course to be td5! If you are pre-entering then you have to presume that the courses are going to be set at the right level as there is no opportunity to look at the courses before the event! I have 4 children and cannot possibly shadow each one of them - the courses are meant to be set so that at a given age and ability the children should be able to complete them independently! My son who will be 11 this year is now meant to do an orange course but at this event he couldn't even complete a yellow course and yet last year he was gaining in confidence with yellow courses! Lets hope that the planners get it right for the rest of the SOL events!
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Re: SOL 1

Postby mappingmum on Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:25 pm

Slightly off topic, but related; hats off to ECKO for opening declaring white/yellow is a bit tough at SOL2 this weekend. And describing (forewarning parents) the handrails (powerline + stream)they will encounter.
Languages die ... mathematical ideas do not. G. H. Hardy
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Re: SOL 1

Postby Rosine on Sat Apr 25, 2009 6:37 pm

Apologies to any juniors who had a bad time - please believe that I did try to get the courses right! And to help the learning curve: we are about to adopt 2 children so hopefully next time I will have a better understanding of juniors... :)

I actually used the BOF documents refered to earlier and found the instructions and examples harder than I normally planned, and I maybe have overcompensated a bit. Another factor was a number of last minute changes which maybe meant that some legs were checked enough. And then when one leg is too hard the whole course moves up a TD level.

One of the challenges in this area was translating the guidelines to an unusual terrain. I found I was replacing 'contour' with 'vegetation' in the descriptions (i.e. using detailed vegetation info in TD 5 and not in TD4) - and this translation did not always work.

I think one of the things that went wrong was that I did not compensate enough for difficult line features. For example, the leg between control 7 and 8 on the yellow has 2 decision points: control 7 is visible from the forest road, and helps them onto the vegetation boundary. The first decision point is where this meets the fence and they turn left, and the second is where the vegetation boundary turns right. (or alternatively the stream). Control 8 then helps them onto the ride.
However, recognising unusual line features on the map and in the terrain takes experience, and in a way this adds another decision to each decision point.

I didn't fully realise how difficult the rides are if you are only used to "normal" big paths. I did try to compensate, sometimes by cutting branches away from the opening of the ride to make it more obvious, and sometimes by having a control at the beginning of the ride.

Someone earlier mentioned taped legs: both the white and yellow had a fair amount of tapes and comments.

In the white, the start of leg 3 was taped until the start of the path after the tree, and the whole leg from 9 to 10 (the re-entrant - linear ditch was not very good). Leg 4 wasn't a great line feature but we made sure control 4 was visible from control 3 to help. The route between 6 and 7 had some black and yellow tapes for safety. Also from the last control to the finish was taped.

In yellow there was a note not to cross the stream until the lake on leg 4 (I wasn't sure everybody would recognise the stream as a line feature). The next leg then was taped from the lake to the start of the ride, taking them through a crossing point in the wall.

(this was shared by orange and long orange as well).

Originally the courses followed the fence W instead of heading S to the lake, but we felt the crossing of the stream at that point was not safe for juniors. As it was fairly dry that weekend it may have been fine but we didn't want to take the risk.

The start of leg 6 was then taped to the fence.

It helps if people can point out specific points rather than a general "this was too hard". If anything, I hope this helps other planners in their courses!

Roos

ps I may not be able to reply again soon, rooms to paint and children to meet!
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Re: SOL 1

Postby RS on Sat Apr 25, 2009 8:50 pm

Methinks the controller was not doing his job very efficiently :(
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Re: SOL 1

Postby awk on Sat Apr 25, 2009 10:22 pm

Hi Roos
I've come to this thread fairly late, and it is certainly an interesting one. I applaud you for being so prepared to discuss the courses! I wasn't at the event, so am going solely on what routegadget shows, but I hope the following will help with specific points you asked for. Because this is a paper exercise, some of my comments may not be so true for what is going on on the ground, but the map is what the competitors will be using. One thing to bear in mind: whilst there is a range of skills that can be tested, at these levels they shouldn't all be tested on the same leg. So on Yellow if you are using 2 decision points, make the line features easy, and keep the end control on the line feature.

If you are using just one start, it should be chosen with novice courses in mind. I would move the start elsewhere, as it doesn't really suit novice courses: white should pretty much all be on tracks, and there isn't one in sight. Difficult to get an appropriate first yellow leg.

Yellow
Make the first control easy - confidence builder and getting children into the rhythm of orienteering. Yellow should stick to line features. You can go off out and back to a control, but the kite must be easily visible from the line feature - no more than 10m off; any further and you're asking a child to use attack points and navigate off line, which is orange. #1 looks a bit orange-ish standard with the control being a fair way off the line feature.
#2 is right at the top end of yellow. It encourages going straight (which you don't want) and line features aren't overly clear. Perhaps position further west along on fence bend? Obviously #3 would then need adjusting.
#4 looks too long - at least 3 decision points if following line features (including stream) to the control. If you want them to follow the wall for the last part, then the control is a long way from this line feature. Better to position it where you want them to cross the wall on the way to #6.
#5: those white 'rides' aren't line features, at least on the map. They may be on the ground, but can't rely on them being read, so shouldn't be used.
#8 and #9 - same as #6. Equally for #8, the edge of that green is not a line feature - there is no veg boundary marked, so shouldn't be used.
I hope #11 was taped!

Long Orange.
If an orange leg isn't to all be on line features, it should normally use line features to an obvious attack point (AP) and have a strong collecting feature (CF). Should normally be on a positive rather than negative feature in that case. If there is cutting across, then needs to be over short distances and hit the line feature 'sideways' rather than 'end' on (i.e. keep the cutting across easy).
#1. Again, I'd have an easy leg to start off. This is looks at least at the the top end of orange, and harder in low visibility. No line features to an AP, and AP isn't obvious. The most obvious AP (fence bend) is a fair way away.
#2 If cutting across out of #2 to the fence south, it's a long way for an orange to go.
#3 AP on fence is a very long way away from control which is on vague feature (illdefined veg edges). Cutting across encouraged, but all through various shades of green, making it difficult. CF a long way away.
#5 I'd try to avoid point features in green on orange courses.
#6 same as 3: approach lines vague on map, no close CF close.
#7 can't spot an AP close enough. Relying on contour reading to find control - that's a TD4 skill.
#8 no line features, no AP, no CF. Even if visible, can't trust in that; what if it had been misty? This is to me at least TD4. Given the reliance on contours the whole way, some argument for lower end TD5.
#9 Cutting across a long way, totally reliant on contours and visibility of forest edge - again what if it had been misty?
#10 No distinct line features, control on contour feature.
#11 No line features out of control - cutting across a long way through forest - and then complex line feature navigation: too much all on one leg.
#13 Reliant on ability to navigate a lot of apparently indistinct line features.

White
Aside from issue of what line features are followed:
#1 discussed under Yellow.
#3 at least one child managed to miss the tapes according to routegadget.
#3-4 would need to be taped from 3 to the wall. Can't rely on visibility - what if weather conditions change, or children don't look in that direction?
#9 decision point at path junction en route makes this Yellow on paper

Hope that helps. As I said, this IS a paper exercise, so I may be off target with conditions on the ground.
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Re: SOL 1

Postby Roger on Sun Apr 26, 2009 3:59 pm

awk - in practice the stripes of white were easily identifiable on the ground (and were nicely runnable too). I'd be content to acknowledge that they were usable line features, and this makes quite a difference to the analysis.
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Re: SOL 1

Postby Gross on Sun Apr 26, 2009 4:41 pm

Entire discussion is a load of Boll""cks... put a decent controller & a good planner together.... no problems :) :)
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Re: SOL 1

Postby awk on Sun Apr 26, 2009 5:23 pm

Roger wrote:awk - in practice the stripes of white were easily identifiable on the ground (and were nicely runnable too). I'd be content to acknowledge that they were usable line features, and this makes quite a difference to the analysis.


Accepted. However, I'd argue that because we're dealing with Orange and Yellow, if the feature is mapped as vague on the map (and there are no veg boundaries or other line features marked), it shouldn't be used for these courses (might just get away with Orange, but definitely not Yellow). I recognise that others might disagree.

Gross: being your usual constructive self I see. By being prepared to so publicly discuss and seek feedback, it looks to me as if Roos is well on the way to being a good planner at this level. Rather than rubbishing this process, I feel that more specific discussion like this can only help develop planning standards for us all.
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Re: SOL 1

Postby DeerTick on Sun Apr 26, 2009 10:31 pm

Entire discussion is a load of Boll""cks... put a decent controller & a good planner together.... no problem


As a recent returnee to the sport (after twenty-odd years) and a new reader of this board, I have to say that this type of comment is infantile and offensive.

The planner has entered into a discussion and this can only be helpful.
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Re: SOL 1

Postby Gnitworp on Sun Apr 26, 2009 10:42 pm

Gross wrote: put a decent controller & a good planner together.... no problems :) :)


Would one of those be you, Gross? :wink:
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