When does a marsh become uncrossable? I ask because the Men's Premier first leg yesterday went straight through an uncrossable marsh which was obviously perfectly crossable and significantly quicker for those that went through it. I think that most obviously didn't realise this at the speed they were travelling and went straight for it. Unfortunatly I did, went around and unfortunately lost 30 seconds over the lead pack in doing so which was rather frustrating.
Others described it as hard work to get through and was knee deep. Ok it's deeper than your average marsh but no worse than I came across on occasions in the individual.
The ISOM guidelines for an uncroissable marsh state:
A marsh which is uncrossable or dangerous for the runner. A black line surrounds the
symbol.
Uncrossable Marshes
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Re: Uncrossable Marshes
It's only sprint ISOM where uncrossable features may not be crossed. If the organisers don't want you to cross something they have to say so, be it in the details or on the map with over-print
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mharky - team nopesport
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Re: Uncrossable Marshes
Very difficult for the mappers. I met an unmapped uncrossable? marsh in the individual. I saw a circular marshy area and expected some resistance - I did not expect to go in up to my neck (no exaggeration) and not feel the bottom. I managed to haul myself out slowly through the suspension and splits suggest I only lost 20 seconds - but the shock and the cold affected me for minutes.
I gues it was one of those bomb craters which had silted up.
I gues it was one of those bomb craters which had silted up.
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Re: Uncrossable Marshes
Rich R wrote:When does a marsh become uncrossable? I ask because the Men's Premier first leg yesterday went straight through an uncrossable marsh which was obviously perfectly crossable and significantly quicker for those that went through it.
Well ISOM defines an uncrossable marsh as "A marsh which is uncrossable or dangerous for the runner. A black line surrounds the symbol." In the introduction to the section on water and marsh it explains "A black line around a water feature indicates that it cannot be crossed under normal weather conditions."
So mharky is correct - for an ISOM map, uncrossability can be interpreted to mean that crossing isn't advisable. It certainly doesn't say that you shall not cross.
Again, mharky rightly points out that the situation is very clear for Sprint/urban maps where ISSOM (note the second "S" which stands for "Sprint") describes the same symbol as:
Impassable marsh (forbidden to cross)
A marsh which is impassable or which may constitute a danger to the competitor.
The feature cannot or shall not be crossed.
It is forbidden to cross an impassable marsh!
Competitors violating this rule will be disqualified.
- DJM
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Re: Uncrossable Marshes
I was on first leg too and certainly saw the marsh was marked as uncrossable. I was not near the front at the time and wondered if I should go round. No tape. No bending of the red line which went through it. These things coupled with the fact that there were already 10 (?) people crossing it and not drowning (plus thinking they wont dq half the field!??) I went for it myself. However, I stuck to the tussocks and bits that look 'safer' and never went beyond 'calf' muscle depth.
I think the rules on this are clear - but a note on the programme plus a verbal comment at minus 1 might have been helpful (in hindsight)
eg 'Your route to one crosses a thin 'uncrossable' marsh. It may be deep and you cross this at your own risk. It is not such a detour to go round it if you plan ahead'
As Eddie H noted too, I went deeper in Marshes elsewhere during the weekend which were not marked as uncrossable. Sometimes you are just unlucky!
I think the rules on this are clear - but a note on the programme plus a verbal comment at minus 1 might have been helpful (in hindsight)
eg 'Your route to one crosses a thin 'uncrossable' marsh. It may be deep and you cross this at your own risk. It is not such a detour to go round it if you plan ahead'
As Eddie H noted too, I went deeper in Marshes elsewhere during the weekend which were not marked as uncrossable. Sometimes you are just unlucky!
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Ravinous - light green
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Re: Uncrossable Marshes
DJM wrote:So mharky is correct - for an ISOM map, uncrossability can be interpreted to mean that crossing isn't advisable. It certainly doesn't say that you shall not cross.
Again, mharky rightly points out that the situation is very clear for Sprint/urban maps where ISSOM (note the second "S" which stands for "Sprint") describes the same symbol as:Impassable marsh (forbidden to cross)
A marsh which is impassable or which may constitute a danger to the competitor.
The feature cannot or shall not be crossed.
It is forbidden to cross an impassable marsh!
Competitors violating this rule will be disqualified.
I quite agree. I have absolutely no issue with people crossing the 'uncrossable marsh' that is the competitors choice. I also understand that the mapper has a difficult job in deciding whether a marsh is uncrossable or not. I don't expect them to check them out.
However, shorly the first leg of a men's premier relay (or any relay/ championship course for that matter) should not either:
a) Go directly through the middle of an 'Uncrossable Marsh' which is either uncrossable or dangerous (if it is likely to be done)? or
b) Be marked as uncrossable if it is easily crossable? - This should have been checked with it being a perfectly viable route.
With regards a) - the marsh may have been neck high mud and a number of people got stuck.
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Rich R - orange
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Re: Uncrossable Marshes
Which leg on which course went through an uncrossable marsh?
"If A is success in life, then A equals x plus y plus z. Work is x; y is play; and z is keeping your mouth shut" Abraham Lincoln
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LostAgain - diehard
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Re: Uncrossable Marshes
LostAgain wrote:Which leg on which course went through an uncrossable marsh?
In the individual event, for class M50L, the purple line went close to an 'uncrossable' marsh just before control 160. I was slightly unsure of my position at that point, and attempted to relocate off the uncrossable marsh. I couldn't find it, and in retrospect I conclude that I was standing in the middle of it at the time. It was only ankle deep, and not as bad as the 'normal' marsh by the control.
In the relay, all legs of women's premier/M40, and probably many other courses, passed through or close to an 'uncrossable' marsh on the way to the first control. I missed it on the map, possibly because it was not surrounded by a solid black line. When it came over my knees, and I had yet to reach the middle, I backed out and found another route!
I would venture that if the relay marsh was dangerous, and it certainly appeared so to me, it should have been taped. The penalty for misreading the map should not be drowning.
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Re: Uncrossable Marshes
Ravinous wrote:I think the rules on this are clear - but a note on the programme plus a verbal comment at minus 1 might have been helpful (in hindsight)
eg 'Your route to one crosses a thin 'uncrossable' marsh. It may be deep and you cross this at your own risk. It is not such a detour to go round it if you plan ahead'
Just to note that the programme did state (in the section on 'Map'): "One of the streams passing through the area has an adjacent marsh which is un-crossable in places. This is marked accordingly on the map."
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Re: Uncrossable Marshes
I too went round the marsh having seen it on the map about halfway to the first control - unlike Ravinous I didn't have the benefit of 10 runners in front of me testing it out. It sounds like if you were lucky you found a bit where you could cross, if you weren't so lucky then you went quite deep. Would you want to take that risk?
Ultimately, it's just one of many mapping dilemmas, and you'll always have some arguing one way and some the other...
Ultimately, it's just one of many mapping dilemmas, and you'll always have some arguing one way and some the other...
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distracted - addict
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Re: Uncrossable Marshes
The same marsh was on the Medium lap of the Ad Hoc courase. As nobody was around I took the soft option and went round. As I arrived at the control another runner arrived who said she regretted going through it
- Tatty
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Re: Uncrossable Marshes
I have a fear of marshes so took a long path route to ensure that I avoided it, I for one would have been very disappointed if such a marsh was not marked as uncrosable. I agree that elite runners and headbangers should have the option but also think that older more sensitive people should have the information available to them to ensure that their appreciation of the sport isn't ruined by an unpleasant experience.
Diets and fitness are no good if you can't read the map.
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HOCOLITE - addict
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Re: Uncrossable Marshes
LostAgain wrote:Which leg on which course went through an uncrossable marsh?
First leg on MOpen. Not the place to find calm, considered rational thought.
I think they got it spot on. It was a good leg. All the gaffles went went through the marsh, so it was "fair". The marsh was crossable by tussock hopping: but certainly looked dangerous to run straight through. So, probably crossable for elites, not for children - which is pretty much implied by it not being taped or the line bent on Mopen.
Is it mapped as uncrossable? Well, it should have a black line round it, but in fact it only has a black line on one side. Uncrossable in one direction maybe?
WOC2024 Edinburgh
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
Test races at SprintScotland (Alloa/Falkirk) and Euromeeting (near Stirling).
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graeme - god
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Re: Uncrossable Marshes
Now that you have pointed out which leg. Is that marsh actually marked as uncrossable?
I thought an uncrossable marsh would be surrounded by a black line. This marsh on closer inspection only has a black line along the West Bank, not sure what this really means. As Graeme says "Uncrossable in one direction".
I thought an uncrossable marsh would be surrounded by a black line. This marsh on closer inspection only has a black line along the West Bank, not sure what this really means. As Graeme says "Uncrossable in one direction".
"If A is success in life, then A equals x plus y plus z. Work is x; y is play; and z is keeping your mouth shut" Abraham Lincoln
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LostAgain - diehard
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Re: Uncrossable Marshes
There was a stream on the other side of the marsh so the black line could not be marked on the other side due to legibility I suspect.
Not quite one gaffle past the uncrossble part of the marsh to the north but of course someone in every team had that leg anyway.
Conclusion - I need to man up and just go for it in the future!
graeme wrote: All the gaffles went went through the marsh, so it was "fair".
Not quite one gaffle past the uncrossble part of the marsh to the north but of course someone in every team had that leg anyway.
Conclusion - I need to man up and just go for it in the future!
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Rich R - orange
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