EMIT at the British

[LostAgain]

It has been said by Spookster that there were 49 DSQ at the 2007 British with 1800 runs, whilst the 2008 British had twice as many DSQ with fewer competitors.

My daughter was DSQ on the relay (the kids yellow) many competitors were DSQ at the first control 185, many of whom were not in the mass start. The organisers have subsequently reinstated the teams. , which is passive acknowledgement of a problem.

Is EMIT less reliable than SI? Discuss!

I personally cannot understand why we have two systems in the UK, since our region generally uses SI, I find EMIT awkward, inevitably many controls have the slot for placing the "brick" in the wrong way round for the direction I approach!

[Tatty]

But my Region mainly uses Emit and I find this easier then SI

[david_rosen]

I personally cannot understand why we have two systems in the UK, since our region generally uses SI, I find EMIT awkward, inevitably many controls have the slot for placing the "brick" in the wrong way round for the direction I approach!

I heard a lot of people expressing very similar sentiments last weekend - including some from members of clubs which use EMIT.

Each system has its advantages and disadvantages, and some of those have changed over the past ten years as the two systems have developed.

Each system has its fans, but it is quite clear (look for example at the answers to the Emit or SI question in Compasssport's Know Your Class Leader) which the majority of UK competitors prefer.

On a world-wide scale, it is good to have competition in the e-punching market. But within one country, I think that having two systems is a significant negative factor. It confuses newcomers and annoys experienced orienteers.

It is difficult to see what British Orienteering can do to resolve the situation. One thing it could perhaps do is commission a report which (as fairly as possible) summarised in three or four pages the strengths and weaknesses of each system and ideally came up with some recommendations. Such a report would be useful for clubs about to purchase or upgrade their kit.

[Kitch]

Seriously - who flipping well cares !

rather than people whining on and on and on about how the system they like most is so superior to the other annoying system and obsessing about whether they lose a fraction of a second fiddling it in to the slot or waiting for a flash or a beep -
try going out and doing some training so you can run faster and navigate more accurately - that will save you real time.
try enjoying the forest and the navigational challenge.

[andy]

rather than people whining on and on and on about how the system they like most is so superior to the other annoying system and obsessing about whether they lose a fraction of a second fiddling it in to the slot or waiting for a flash or a beep try going out and doing some training so you can run faster and navigate more accurately - that will save you real time.

Yes, it would do. But the thing that's debated most is the integrity of the system. It's about not disqualifying legitimate runs. Doesn't matter how fast you run it's still a problem!

[Angry Haggis]

Seriously - who flipping well cares !

Quite a lot of people actually, hence the numerous threads on this topic on Nopesport.

rather than people whining on and on and on

Well, this is a public forum for debate. If they don't "whine" on about it here, where else can they?

I'm sure once you get an otherwise good run destroyed by the failure of one of the systems, you'll have more to say about it!

[distracted]

Yes, it would do. But the thing that's debated most is the integrity of the system.

And what's mentioned far less is the reliability of the user...

[Kitch]

Quite a lot of people actually, hence the numerous threads on this topic on Nopesport.

and its really boring -
ok if people have to talk about the technicalities again and again and again but LoT is just making up excuses to support his dislike of EMIT.
I mean there is clearly a causal link between increased mispunching this year and the use of EMIT - its totally impossible for example that Culbin being a far more technical area means lots more people don't really know where they are and failed to check their codes when punching at the first likely looking flag they come across - And its clear that the problem in the relay was a technical problem because EMIT is crap and it is impossible that there were probably 2 units out at the first control and one of them was the wrong code......
No - fact is EMIT is jobbie because ..... its a bit fiddly

I'm sure once you get an otherwise good run destroyed by the failure of one of the systems, you'll have more to say about it!

unlikely, since what constitutes a good run for me is feeling physically strong and nailing the navigation.
and anyway the chances of those two both happening these days and a punching system error all in the same run are vanishingly small

all this petty rubbish about punching systems is beside the point.
Go out in the forest enjoy the challenge, run well and come back happy rather than upsetting yourself, making/looking for excuses over the minutiae of punching systems.

[Paul T]

Kitch has it. I’m one of the recreational majority with precisely zero chance of standing on the podium. I like to ‘compete’, but my enjoyment and satisfaction last weekend was in the challenge of the terrain and navigation.

In so far as electronic timing allows us to compare splits, inform the post-race inquest and therefore to improve, then it contributes massively to my enjoyment of the sport. If one or two splits are missing or even if no results were produced for the recreational majority, then who cares - my memory of Culbin would still be of the quality terrain and planning.
Of course as an elite sport, we must have a robust timing system and both systems seem to be successfully used for elite competitions around the world. They don’t seem to mp - perhaps they take the time to learn what’s needed.

As a competitor I far prefer to use SI but it’s way down the list of criteria of what makes a good event.

[EddieH]

Quite right Distracted. A few weeks ago I arrived at the finish to be told I'd missed 2 controls. I swaore blind I'd been to them all and seemed to be believed despite Emit's lack of record. In the evenig I suddenly realised that I never had gone to those controls.

Also mp in the results includes retirements. I think that more retirements would be expected in Culbin than Pwll Du. So I agree with Kitch that the statistics prove nothing whatsoever.

With the backup cards and video timing there is nothing to worry aout with Emit as long as you punch properly. Yet, even so I am prepared to take the risk of an anomoly as I don't slot the card in. I don't expect it to fail and choose to back that expectation - if there were a problem it would be my fault.

[awk]

They don’t seem to mp - perhaps they take the time to learn what’s needed.

Oh yes they do! And there's been plenty of discussion at the elite end on the robustness of both systems.

Having had emit cards give me problems twice (both down to dying batteries I gather), I have to say it's not a case of like or dislike; I simply don't trust emit. Which is why I now tend to make use of the backup facility. But I did enjoy the contactless punching at Oxford last year!

[Adventure Racer]

Ooh - I do love a good Emit vs. SI thread.

The one thing I can say definitively is that I've never seen the sort of failure Hocolite got at the British sprints (card appears to have punched correctly when at control, no physical failure, yet no download) with SI.

[schnitzer]

Ooh - I do love a good Emit vs. SI thread.

Absolutely - it puts a smile on my face when people put their opinions across with a bit of passion!

RELIABILITY - I have been to many SI and EMIT events and have never directly experienced any failure (altho I have with Joe Lee). I have only ever heard about one or two failures with SI and EMIT over the years (AWK - seriously two seperate occasions? EMIT must hate you!) that could be attributed to the equipment i.e not the user so that makes them even in my book.

EASE OF USE - SI is easier to use for newcomers to the sport simply becasue there is only one way to punch and it goes into the slot any way round. EMIT is easier to use for people that have taken the time to analyse the different ways of punching and has got good at using one of the quicker ways. Not sure if anyone has ever discussed the three main ways of using EMIT (assume that your backup card stays where it is and remains in one piece) so here goes...

1. Bolts and braces (SLOW). Put the brick into the slot (deal with it if it's the wrong way around) get the pin punch and care not what your display reads (if you have one - rarely don't) or whether the light falshes (if there is one - almost never isn't).
2. Display (FAST). While running up to the unit make sure the display is visible and position the card near to the unit. Once the display changes (scrolling bars, control number, whatever) run off.
3. Light (FASTEST). While running up to the unit get eye contact with the light and position the card near to the unit. Once you see the flash, run off.

SPEED - I personally use the light method and I would say that the amount of times I miss the light flash the first time is similar to the amount of times I've missed the slot with SI i.e. not very often. However I have come across an SI unit that doesn't beep or flash and had to pin-punch my map many many more times than I have come across an EMIT unit that doesn't flash and had to put the brick in the slot. In fact I can't remember that ever happening. Even if it did brick into the slot = quicker than pin-punch your map regardless what way around the unit is. That makes EMIT quicker in my book.

[Big Jon]

"The one thing I can say definitively is that I've never seen the sort of failure Hocolite got at the British sprints (card appears to have punched correctly when at control, no physical failure, yet no download) with SI."

I have seen just this with SI - after punching at each control and seeing/hearing the flash/bleep the card had some splits but not others, had been cleared and checked but had other random splits - and being SI there was no no back up......
With Emit there is the back-up card for the results team to check (unless you are stupid enough not to use the card).
Regarding the card staying in - try a couple of little bits of insulating tape either on the sides or the ends and the card will be bomb proof.
As far as using "slow", "fast" or "lightning fast" punching - how long are you going to save? - a few seconds, Andy K is right - get out and do some technique training and fitness training and you'll save minutes rather than seconds.

[Gross]

Big Jon & Andy K are talking out a hole in their heads:) As an overweight by 10kg's, fat M50S runner then I can confirm that no amount of training etc will save me any more seconds.... but seems like fast SI punching will save me micro seconds so logically I should be in favour of SI....

But SI is crap & EMIT is great........

Bring back ink stamps & black & white OS maps:)