should the description for 25 not have been easternmost wall (inside) corner? There are more than 1 of the same feature in the circle so surely you have to specify?
As for getting there, looking at it on screen (having never been there) you'd have to go all the way down the steps(?) and back up the slope.
Warwick today
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Re: Warwick today
Andrew Dalgleish (INT)
Views expressed on Nopesport are my own.
Views expressed on Nopesport are my own.
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Re: Warwick today
However I still think there is somethin Odd with the map. As you proceed clockwise arround the wall from the entrance by the central butterfly control the shade changes from pink to grey to dark grey. This gives the impression that there was something different about this first section off wall.
I wasn't there, but looking at the map I would assume that you could run along the top of this section of wall, which would not be possible for the dark grey section. The brown/pink colour represents a paved area, which seems fair enough.
What does confuse me is that it doesn't seem possible to reach that area without going through either the building symbol or the wall itself. I assume there was a door/gate at the foot of the tower even though there isn't one mapped. Perhaps the mapper never expected it to be open - this would explain at least some of the confusion (though Gross is correct to say the control site is unambiguous).
By the way, please don't take this as a criticism of the map in general, which is magnificent. Having made one of the previous City Race maps, I'm just interested in how other mappers interpret the ISSOM specs.
Cheers,
Patrick
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Re: Warwick today
andy wrote:should the description for 25 not have been easternmost wall (inside) corner? There are more than 1 of the same feature in the circle so surely you have to specify?
The control description is specifically "east-facing inside wall corner", and there's only one of them within the circle.
British Orienteering Director | Opinions expressed on here are entirely my own, and do not represent the views of British Orienteering.
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"If only you were younger and better..."
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Scott - god
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Re: Warwick today
andy wrote:should the description for 25 not have been easternmost wall (inside) corner? There are more than 1 of the same feature in the circle so surely you have to specify?
Not when you take the directionality of the corner symbol into account (which you should). There's only one west-pointing corner in the circle.
Patrick
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Re: Warwick today
I seem to have become an echo!
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Re: Warwick today
Great minds etc.
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Scott - god
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Re: Warwick today
Bearing in mind that these events are great introductions for beginners, it would be good if some of these situations weren't made too confusing...I doubt they will all understand the control descriptions perfectly if it is their first race.
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Re: Warwick today
Apparently the planner originally wanted to put a control on top of the ramparts. It could well be the map was set up to allow this, hence the colouring. Irrespective of the situation on the ground, the map shows the inside castle wall to be uncrossable and so in theory it should be obvious the control can't be inside/on top. I do feel that this would have been more obvious had the map shown an impassable building rather than a passable area...
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distracted - addict
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Re: Warwick today
You could reach the top of that section of wall through a doorway at the foot of the tower and up the stairs and also i think from the other bit of wall west of the tower if you went the whole way up the tower and back down the other staircase.
There was another doorway at the other, SE end of the top of wall section next to the gatehouse, but it was closed.
It confused quite a few much more experienced orienteers than me, so i'd agree about beginners maybe having problems if they had that control as well.
There was another doorway at the other, SE end of the top of wall section next to the gatehouse, but it was closed.
It confused quite a few much more experienced orienteers than me, so i'd agree about beginners maybe having problems if they had that control as well.
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Re: Warwick today
Oh I agree it was the colouration of the inside of the tower which suckered me into it (that and seeing all the other people running in and out as i ran across the Castle Green and should I have been doing that anyway?) In retrospect that siting of the control circle appears to have been correct as was the control description.
I made 3 big mistakes (one of which resulted in a mis-punch) and they were all because I allowed myself to influencd by other people - i think that's what i've got to remember at Oxford and i'm sure the more we do these kind of races the better we are going to get at them (well I'm hoping so). Can't wait!
I made 3 big mistakes (one of which resulted in a mis-punch) and they were all because I allowed myself to influencd by other people - i think that's what i've got to remember at Oxford and i'm sure the more we do these kind of races the better we are going to get at them (well I'm hoping so). Can't wait!
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Mrs H - god
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Re: Warwick today
Patrick wrote:andy wrote:should the description for 25 not have been easternmost wall (inside) corner? There are more than 1 of the same feature in the circle so surely you have to specify?
Not when you take the directionality of the corner symbol into account (which you should). There's only one west-pointing corner in the circle.
Patrick
The "which feature" column should describe the feature not the location of the flag on that feature. Thus northern stream bend describes a bend in the northermost stream within the circle, which may not be the northernmost bend in the circle (ignoring the fact that it might be poor planning to use that feature in such a case). Given the increased detail on sprint maps It may well be that new descriptions need to evolve alongside ISSOM.
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Re: Warwick today
The directionality symbol was entirely correct and described the only east facing wall corner in the circle. The anology with the bend symbol is not correct. There is no way of describing which bend if there is more than one (so it should be used sparingly and very carefully on twisting line features.) There are 16 ways of describing which wall corner (8 inside and 8 outside).
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Re: Warwick today
NeilC wrote: Given the increased detail on sprint maps It may well be that new descriptions need to evolve alongside ISSOM.
This is definitely true. It is much harder to come up with fair control descriptions on an ISSOM map than it is on a normal ISOM map, mostly because you have so many more things in the circle. When controlling on ISSOM maps I have often had long debates withe the planner about the best way to describe a circle, given that there are often many possibilities. There are two things to consider:
1) From the description can I unambiguously identify a feature in the circle that I should go to?
2) When in the circle does the description provide a fair description of where the flag is?
For the famous control 120 on the wall at Warwick I think I would have added an "eastmost" arrow to clarify which wall we are talking about: not strictly needed but it doesn't hurt. I personally had no trouble with this control since I'd seen it already on the way into the castle: check out Nick Barrable's top sprint tips video if you have't seen it already.
There were other controls at Warwick worthy of a bit more comment that people don't seem to have picked up on yet.
119 (4 on Men's Open) and 135 (19 on Men's Open) both used the "Narrow passage" symbol. I find this an unhelpful description in these circumstances. I think I would have used some combination of building and side symbols.
102 (21 on Men's Open) was described as "Fence, NW side". On the map it looks like a wall, because there isn't room to put the tags on the fence, and in fact the only "fence" in the circle is on the other side of the road. This is a really difficult site to describe, and I think something like "N fence, S end", "gate" or "building, SE side" are all equally valid and possibly easier to understand. Sometimes you may need to decide that if you can't describe it you can't use it.
109 (27 on my gaffle of the Men's Open) is the only site that I think is seriously misleading and unfair. The control description is "paved area, S side". The only visible paved area in the circle is inside the castle walls, which is where I headed. Several minutes later I gave up and tried outside the castle walls, which is where the flag is. I guess that at high enlargement in OCAD there is a tiny bit of brown in the bend in the wall, but even sitting here now I can't be sure. This description should really have been something like "S wall, S side" or even "wall hedge junction".
Something for future planners and controllers to watch out for.
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Re: Warwick today
johnloguk wrote:I still hear detracting voices along the lines of; "but it's technically easy, you're only running round paths" and "it's only for fast runners because you don't have to navigate"
belated thanks to OD for the event, and Mrs H for bullying me into taking part - I too thought that while sprint / town races were great for the sport, they weren't for middle aged dedicated non-runners like me. But it was FUN - and I spent far more time than usual hands on hips saying "but it's got to be here...." - and I can't wait for Oxford... so if there are any un-converted lurkers reading this, try at least one event before you decide it's not for you!
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Re: Warwick today
seabird wrote:The directionality symbol was entirely correct and described the only east facing wall corner in the circle. The anology with the bend symbol is not correct. There is no way of describing which bend if there is more than one (so it should be used sparingly and very carefully on twisting line features.) There are 16 ways of describing which wall corner (8 inside and 8 outside).
The symbol in column C refers to columns D/E/F not to column G
Consider if the following characters represent walls
I M
and the control was placed in the first (top left) corner of the M
The control description would be eastern wall, north corner inside
what you really want to say, since there are both two walls and two north corners of a wall, but can't, is
eastern wall, western north corner inside
The best written description might be western inside north corner of wall but that can't be translated correctly into pictoral descriptions. You might argue that a western arrow in column C would be OK, but then what if there was a third wall?
M I M
Western inside north corner would not work then, nor middle. Eastern wall, western north corner inside still would.
SimonE suggests that because this feature can't be unambiguously described don't use it. As anyone who read an article I wrote for CompassSport last year probably won't recall is that I don't believe this should be used as a hard and fast rule, but is something that needs to be very carefully considered before rejecting.
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