NE1 courses

[IanD]

The RouteGadget link from the results page of theMole web site is finally working http://www.mvoc.org.
I'd appreciate any constructive comments on the courses, or indeed any other aspect of the event (apart from our inability to get the right number of maps printed - sorry again).
Ian Ditchfield (planner)

[awk]

Just to say that I thought our course (course 8, M45L. M50L) was excellent Ian, and I really enjoyed the whole event on my first visit back to White Downs since, I think, the British Juniors in 1975. I was impressed in particular how little path running there was (helped by that gloriously runnable forest, but even so), and by the variety. Legs 7 and 11 stood out for me. The latter caught me out a little as it was just when brain and legs were starting to tire on my first Long course at a National for years.

My one thought was more about the map (generally good) than the courses: I couldn't get my head round the vegetation, especially the undergrowth symbol: it never quite matched what I expected. I also never quite worked out why some clearings were mapped and others weren't. But that may be too many years in northern forests?

[King Penguin]

I was on the same course as AWK and also struggled to reconcile some of the vegitation - particularly in the area where 7-8 and 10-11 crossed. However, I can't blame the map for my mistakes on these 2 legs as there should have been enough clues other than the vegitation to keep me on line.
It did affect my route chouce on 11-12, as I chose to go south then east on the path to avoid the mapped undergrowth, but speaking to others they said it was no problem going direct.

[mikey]

I was on the same course as AWK and also struggled to reconcile some of the vegitation - particularly in the area where 7-8 and 10-11 crossed.

It was the ruined 'fences' that did for me (+ my own stupidity ).

[Axel]

The length of M55L course seemed to be a wee bit on the short side

[IanD]

The length of M55L course seemed to be a wee bit on the short side

I was waiting to see if anyone would raise course lengths.

The guidelines specify a M21L winning time of 75 minutes, and every other course is specified not in terms of winning time, but proportionate length of M21L - 56% of M21L for M55L.

The courses were deliberately short. The controller felt this was appropriate for mid-winter, with possible adverse weather conditions. I was expecting the M21L winning time to be around 67 or 68 minutes. In fact GG managed 65:55, suggesting the courses were 12% short.

The M55L course was almost exactly the correct length ratio compared to M21L (the calculation is not completely straightforward as you need to allow for climb as well). This implies that if M21L had been its "correct" 75 minutes, and the ratios maintained, M55L would have been won in just over 53 minutes.

Two issues here. Is it right that courses should be planned for shorter times in mid-winter? And if so, how much shorter?

Secondly, are the ratios right for the other classes? Is it right that we should expect M55L to be won well within an hour?

I actually expected the most glaringly fast winning time to be on M50L, but Colin Dickson seems to have performed like a mere mortal, and would have taken over an hour had the course lengths been "correct".

For what it's worth, my personal view is that the ratios are about right. While the veteran elite may find them a little short, if we plan to give them a 70 minute or so winning time, we would find very few other people able to cope with the courses. Veering off-topic, I would like to see a formal British Long Distance championship event for all age classes though.

[Dave]

I would like to see a formal British Long Distance championship event for all age classes though.

Isn't that what BOC now is, with the British Elites taking Middle and Sprint?
I think there is not much need for shortening course lengths in winter, White Downs wasn't a terribly exposed area and the only difficulty would hav been the slope to the south if it was really wet. Coming off endurance training in the winter, I don't think there is much reason why the elite classes shouldn't be able to cope with 'normal' distances or times.

[Blanka]

Perhaps slightly off topic, but I had been wondering whether there was any reason why there were no elite courses? As far as I understand, that is the main difference (apart from the extra weighting in rankings) between National and Badge events, so wondered why the decision was made not to put them on at White Downs....?

[Neil M35]

Perhaps slightly off topic, but I had been wondering whether there was any reason why there were no elite courses? As far as I understand, that is the main difference (apart from the extra weighting in rankings) between National and Badge events, so wondered why the decision was made not to put them on at White Downs....?

Elite classes are to be offered for M21 and W21 when the event is
part of the UK Cup and / or is a World Ranking Event, and these
classes are requested by the Elite Competitions Group.

National events only include Elite if they are also UK Cup and/or WRE. The requirement to have elite courses at all National events was dropped a few years ago. Also I don't think National events get any extra weighting in the rankings - this was also dropped some years ago.

[wonderboy]

And the Whitbarrow scar National event which is a UK cup and WRE has no Elite course, just M/W21L I believe.

[Snail]

The courses were deliberately short. The controller felt this was appropriate for mid-winter, with possible adverse weather conditions.

But nearly all regional / national events in the south are in the period October-March. Should they all be short?

The result was that the NE course lengths (adjusted for climb) were slightly shorter than those at the Winterfold regional event only 3 miles away a few months earlier. Doesn't this just give a boost to the argument that National Events should be abandoned?

More seriously, if planners / controllers are not following the guidelines for any event, shouldn't they say on the entry form that courses are being planned to be x% of the recommended lengths?

[The Loofa]

Perhaps slightly off topic, but I had been wondering whether there was any reason why there were no elite courses? As far as I understand, that is the main difference (apart from the extra weighting in rankings) between National and Badge events, so wondered why the decision was made not to put them on at White Downs....?

Blanka

The extra weighting in rankings went years ago - even for the British and JK. All wrongly in my view - after all what is there to make you want to try harder at a National Event.

That leaves the only difference between National and Regional being the size of the entry fee. Discuss.

Andy

[Gross]

If the courses were short on the decision of the controller & not advised to entrants in advice & without seeking advice from higher up the ladder then it's another case of poor controlling. Controllers cannot interperate rules & guidelines as they wish without consultation.

[EddieH]

M55 won in 53 minutes - TRAGIC.

I am in a real quandary this year - I do not want to be running major "LONG?????" events in under an hour - persdonally not in under 70 minutes.

With Middle and short hopefully becoming serious events for us all soon, wh can't we have proper classic courses - there are S courses for those that want.

As we get older we lose speed, stamina is improved for several years (fo those that train).

As for winter shortening WHY?

[Paul T]

While the veteran elite may find them a little short, if we plan to give them a 70 minute or so winning time, we would find very few other people able to cope with the courses.

But we have an option - to run the short course.

Winning times for M45L course at 5 recent badge events (I know the planning rationale is slightly different) in the south: 51,53,50,53,51 minutes. Upper quartile times for the same events: 63,73,63,68,64

Corresponding figures for the NE1 were 54 and 66, so it was right in the the pack of current events ...... but they were short. I'd prefer the guiidelines for L courses to be closer to the 21E winning times and to be so irrespective of the time of year. Judging the likely effect of the actual conditions on the day should be up to the competitor, who has better information than the planner/controller judging in advance what might happen.

Anyway, I really enjoyed the shape of the 45L course. Thanks.