Waterproof maps at the National..

[RobL]

I really enjoyed today's event, but I'm not convinced by the waterproof paper maps.

If it's dry, then the maps stick together and in the excitement of the start lane there's frustration when you can't be sure if you've picked up more than one map at a time.

If it's wet then the maps become so flimsy that the handling becomes difficult and they are liable to tear in the fight. However, perhaps worse is the fact that if they become muddy then there is no way of shifting the dirt. My younger son fell over at some point in the race and his map was absolutely covered in mud. Even at the sink just now it has been impossible to clean it.

Having said all that, the downpour at 2 o'clock was torrential, so I guess it was quite a test.

The decision by MV to supply bags at the start was definitely a good one. It's a bit of a shame that I forgot to advise my kids (oops!)

[brooner]

mud & blood are the main problems i find with these maps, they just don't wipe off very well. I saw a kid head to toe in mud after finishing and it didn't look like he'd been able to read his map for all the mud on it, so i chose the map bag option.

[tim sleepless]

Were they meant to be waterproof? I assumed that I just hadn't picked up a mapcase by mistake.

[Tatty]

Yes, they are supposed to be waterproof, but as already remarked, once covered in mud there is a problem. I used a map bag, but when I went back through the Finish the bags had run out, as had the maps on course 3!!

[Scott]

MVOC appear to be offering refunds to those affected.

[NeilC]

I am undecided about these maps. As a planner I decided to give them a go at the Southern Night Champs this year. Test running legs and courses beforehand I thought that the maps were excellent. Very little reflection off them under my 20W halogen and very easy to fold. On the day of the event it rained a lot and my all-controls map started to suffer a bit. It didn't tear when soaked but the print did start to rub off at the creases. During the event itself it rained on and off and was quite muddy. Most competitors had no problems with unbagged maps - a few had mud problems.

I think the approach MV used was the correct one for a major event - provide bags and let people decide for themselves. I have heard of problems with pretex maps sticking together when wet though this didn't seem to be a problem yesterday.

I didn't realise that the bags had run out - there were still three boxes available when I started at 12:50.

[Mrs H]

bearing in mind that course 3 was an FCC course and they ran out almost an hour before the start closed - I have to say it spoiled the whole day for us. Young Neville had to wait in the rain at the start for almost half an hour to get a map - and then they just started anyone as and when - no order no spaces.

The only sensible thing to have done was for them to have put starts back for a given period and given competitiors the chance to keep warm, then started them in order - he was passed half way round by someone he thought had started half an hour behind him and gave up heart - the other had actually started just a few minutes behind - as I said before we only went for th FCC and as far as we were concerned it was a huge waste of time and money. I don't understand how they can have run out of maps given There didn't appear to be any EOD.

[distracted]

I don't understand how they can have run out of maps given There didn't appear to be any EOD.

Read the explanation in the planner's comments on the MV site - essentially someone ordered fewer maps because they thought one of the classes was on another course....

[Steve]

Wasn't there some experimentation with unbagged Tyvek maps some years ago? And the conclusion was that they were a non-starter because although undamageable by water, contact with mud / blood produced permanant stains, and bagging was deemed essential.

We seem to be going full circle.

I didn't fall over or anything but my map became spotted by mud splashes, and smeared where I used my hands to pull myself out of the quarries on saplings. Unfortunately I can't use the stained map excuse for mispunching

[Mrs H]

essentially someone ordered fewer maps because they thought one of the classes was on another course....

I respect the planner for being so open about the cock up - but as he says - standing around in the rain in your running top for half an hour and then having to use someone else's mud/blood spattered map for an important race is hardly a good start.

After some thought - I have e-mailed th FCC co-ordinator with a suggestion as to how the matter could be handled satisfactorily for everyone in the FCC which is essential this:

Anyone caught up in the map problem should be given the opportunity to replace their score with their best from the rest of the series (some pople may choose not to as they can turn this kind of upset to their advantage - and others cannot). That way the early starters who did well hang on to their score - while those who were affected do no better than they have the potential to do under normal circumstances. This way the journey would still prove to be worthwhile for everyone.

The FCC has proved itself to be flexible and fair in the past (last year for insance when a replacement race was introduced at short notice) and it needs to be seen by the CPSU to be giving out th right messages to our young aspiring athletes (some of whom are under 18 ) I think this would satisfy everyone - it's the system I use not to disadvantage my MADO planners and controllers.

[Duncan]

Back on the subject of this thread, rather than some FCC digression....

We have to be careful about having just a few experiences of waterproof maps not being adequate and then dismissing them out of hand forever.

Firstly technology is forever improving. Hopefully people making constructive observatations, as per on this thread, will somehow feed its way back to printing companies (not sure how though...) and put the pressure on to make improvements.

Secondly not all waterproof maps are the same. Whilst I agree there were some problems with mud on the MV maps, the phoenix long O in Northumberland has used them for a couple of years and I've never had the same problems - they wipe clean a lot more easily. I don't know who prints them.

One other problem I have seen with the waterproof maps is they way they stick together. At the JOK Chasing Sprint the day before we felt the need to have a helper at the start whose job it was to separate the top few maps so people didn't grab more than one, or waste time separating the maps. I think MV had people doing that as well. Obviously there comes a tradeoff between the volunteer time to pre-bag the maps and the volunteer time to do a job like that...

[PeteL]

It (the waterproof map)didn't tear when soaked but the print did start to rub off at the creases.

Gramp recently used waterproof maps at a very wet event on open sand dunes and competitors comments reflected those on this thread. The problem that concerns me the most is the rubbing off of print, especially when the map has been folded.

Does anyone know whether the print rubs off on folds in the 'dry' (sweaty hands notwithstanding) or when the map is bagged?

I know that nopesport contributors will undoubtedly never throw away a single map but just imagine the situation where someone might want to dispose of a map (e.g. death or as part of OCD therapy) or if maps are left over from events. Are these maps recyclable through the standard kerbside collection schemes now common in the UK? A minor point, I know but I wonder if anybody has considered this point in making the decision to use this paper?

[Becks]

We used these yesterday at an ELO local event and it stood up to some pretty tough bog and wind and rain situations, but I couldn'#t get over how flimsy it felt once wet - at least it meant I had the whole course planned by number two as I was worried my map was going to disintegrate. Fell hands first into a few bogs and it came out with no print off or anything - I was impressed but at the same time totally lacking in confidence!

[Tatty]

Whenh I started, just after 11.30, there was someone sorting out the maps so we only had a single piece of papaer to take. It was a great help.

[FatBoy]

I can't comment on yesterday but at the Midland Nights my map was barely readable when I finished - so much mud on it that wouldn't wipe off. I also was quite concerned about falling onto it and ripping it.

That said I think having a waterproof piece of paper is a good idea, I would just prefer mine in a bag so offering the choice of this is good. I always used to put tyvek control cards in a bag to stop them ending up a crumpled muddy mess and thus similarly would do so for maps. I suspect many other won't have quite the ability to destroy maps and can run without a bag. Certainly the lack of glare at night without a bag was good although a trade off I wouldn't take myself (particularly given my inability to stay on my feet at night!)

Personally the time taken to stick a map in a bag is neither here nor there but to make it fair should we offer bagged or unbagged as an option the starter gives, particularly if they're having to single out a map to stop them sticking together anyway? This choice is often available at MTBO races.