Mole Valley plus others

[freaky_phil]

I find it surprising that with a National Event event on this weekend there are also 9 other events listed on the BO web site, there may by others, C5 etc also going on. In my day when there was a National on nothing else was allowed to happen, but I think that then changed that nothing could happen within a XXX geographical area of the National.

It just seems that a National is no longer a NATIONAL in that everyone comes from all parts of the country to compete against their age leaders.

So I suppose the question is "Is there any future in National Events"? why would a club invest all the extra effort in hosting one just for a few hundred more runners? I've organised one so I know the work required.

I am not criticising the clubs who are hosting these events, market forces are obviously dictating this, more along the lines of the events should be held on a different weekend. Maybe this is more a symptom of the new membership schemes LBM v NBM as LBM would have to pay an increased fee to go to the National so a local event is more appealing.

By the way I'll be there on Sunday, and looking forward to it.

[Mrs H]

Interesting point Phil - I almost certainly would not be going were it not for the FCC imperative as there is a Western Night League and a West Midlands League both on within easy reach of me over the weekend.

In my opinion the sport is rapidly polarising into those who are prepared to travel considerable distances every weekend for a perceived "quality event" (we are very familier with the arguments for these on nopesport particularly of the length/TD variety) and those who prefer to have orienteering as one of several leisure options they can take part in locally without breaking the bank or burning the environment.

I can actually only see a long term future for one of these groups - and it's a theory I'm proposing to expand on fairly soon.

[Adventure Racer]

Accepted I am not a typical orienteer, but for me at least it's a driving hours/running hours ratio issue. I happily drive all the way to Edinburgh for an event, but I get 11 hours or so of event for that (that and the fact it's effectively a much bigger event than an orienteering National Event). Happy to go even further for longer events. However 3 hours each way to Surrey for 1.5 hours of running doesn't seem such a good ratio. Without other commitments, I probably would have considered going down to make a weekend of it with the JOK as well, since I'm getting serious enough to want to test myself at bigger events. But it's a bit like the District/Regional debate - what do you actually get extra for your 4 extra hours of sitting in a car?

[Rookie]

This is pretty much the same debate as "Where have all the young'uns gone" has ended up as.

I agree, the only reason for me going to the national is that it's FCC. As pretty much all C4 upwards are decent now there needs to be something different bout nationals. Variation in middle,classic and sprint - have a year long UK Cup, have a reason for people to go

I'm one of Mrs. H's "willing to travel" people, by my view of a quality event is if it'll be fun and interesting, a race type suited to the terrain it's on.

[ifor]

I will be going over as it's a national event, and I will be shareing transport with my mum how will be taking it relativly seriously. Personaly though my big effort of the weekend will be on the Saturday night trying too pull back some ground on AR in the WNL.

Ifor

[ryeland of doom]

Nationals , I can never equate them with the old regional championships, but then again, we went to them for the great maps (1973 SW champs excluded) and premarked courses. Now they come as standard everywhere.
There is not the perceived superiority anymore - they are just expensive badge events - worth going to if nearby, but travel is expensive and difficult.

I am glad these events no longer sterilise the fixture list, remember the days you had a weekend off because of one event 200 miles away. Hopefully the nationals will still draw folk, but it is good to have something at home as well as a choice - especially when the national is at the other end of a neighbouring country.

Perhaps England needs something like the SOL, a series of super regional events linked by a league. That may help them along.

[Mrs H]

A while back I wrote in compassSport

If I was able to predict a long term strategy by which orienteering could survive in this country for another 40 years it would be this:
*A wealth of local events which would mean you could get to one in under an hour every week, put on with minimum fuss, stress and manpower (less daunting for newcomers to plan and organise).
*A maximum of 2 District and 1 Regional event per club each year.
*A monthly National and/or Multi-day event somewhere in the country as a real focal point (also to be used for Selection, Ranking and Championship purposes).

I'm actually beginning to wonder if even this will be sustainable in ten years time - and whether the sport should be encouraging people to do so much travelling - I now think that selections, FCC etc will have to become comparative because that much travelling will be out of the question (it's already happening - think about the team that didn't go to the YBT final because they'd just been to the CSC final)

[Duncan]

It looks like you have singled out an exceptional weekend of events here. The National Event is on the south side of London, a long way from a large amount of the UK, and many orienteers would not travel to it regardless of whether there was another local event to tempt them. And as for those other events you speak of: 2 in Scotland. 3 in the North West (1 admittedly towards the south of the region). 1 in the North East. 1 in the South West. etc. It isn't as if EMOA, SCOA, EAOA, SEOA etc. are putting on competing events here. I think you are over reacting.

On the flip side, backing the "why bother with national events" debate, what is there to attract top 21s to the event if you don't offer an elite course? Quality of area? White Downs is ok, but nothing special compared to a number of other areas in the South East that have regional events. I'm sure it has been argued before, but if you are going to offer a national event there has to be something that makes it stand out as such, rather than just the title (I might be misjudging this event as I haven't gone yet, but I can't see anything on offer I wouldn't expect at a decent regional).

[Adventure Racer]

Given the usual complaints about regional events, the most obvious difference is presumably a decent level of competition on most courses.

[Mrs H]

Have to say I really enjoyed reading the final details - they have all the makings of a good TV mini-series - and I am looking forward to the event - even though I wouldn't be going if I didn't have to.

You know somone has really been paying attention to what's been said round here on previous threads when they start

FINAL DETAILS

Important points
If you only remember one paragraph of these details, make it this one

well done

[graeme]

On the flip side, backing the "why bother with national events" debate, what is there to attract top 21s to the event if you don't offer an elite course?

National events for 21s were killed off by the UK cup, and for U21s by the FCC. That de facto decision was taken long ago: there simply isn't space in the calendar for two such series.

Of course, this year's UK Cup has only one race beyond British Champs, JK and WOC selection, so it is hardly meeting its remit "to provide high quality competition for elites". With so many "Championships" it is more like a Champion of Champions prize than an elite development series.

[johnloguk]

There are lots of good points being raised here, but the real difficulty is being able to predict the future.

There is still a large number of orienteers who regularly travel a long way to perceived higher quality events, and I repeat "perceived" because I honestly think many C3s and some C2s are not actually of a quality that deserves the extra fees or travel.

It is a current big frustration of mine that so many people don't seem to recognise the dodgy quality of some of these events, with literally hundereds and hundreds of people turning up at the same tired old areas. Often visiting the same control sites year after year, even repeating legs! Will they keep doing this for ever, or will more and more people slowly come round to my view that smaller local events are often at least as good quality?

Many regularly make the point that a C4 on the same top area gives better competition and similar facilities for less dosh than a C3. So why have a C3 there, just to make money?

AR makes the connection between time travelled and time on the run, which most of us would recognise. But don't we also look at other things we can do in the area before/after the run to make the trip even more worthwhile. That is why multi-day events are getting even more attractive to me these days, added value orienteering etc.

I hope this doesn't come over as all moaning and depressing, because I still think orienteering is the best sport on the planet and most orienteers are fantastic people. But the sport is at a crossroads, and there are so many exciting new developments, I just hope we grasp them instead of withering away in some brambly old wood

We've just been asked to put on another orienteering birthday party by the way (for total non-orienteers), now that is quality (and a good "income generation stream" according to our treasurer )

[Mrs H]

Obviosuly John - I agree with everything you say - it's about three years since I wrote about Extra Value Orienteering and many events have really taken this to heart - I do think it could be a very big plus point for bigger events like nationals and multi-days - why make two journeys (to an orienteering events and a place of interest) when one will do?

I'm also interested in your last paragraph - I have recently been asked to provide an orienteering charity fund raiser but my own committee are not at all keen on the idea siting all sorts of problems like insurance - what do you do with your birhday parties? (I have had a birthday party as part of a MADO event).

what do you charge/provide etc?

[johnloguk]

Hi Mrs H, the birthday parties are great fun that came totally out of the blue a while back. Basically we charge £5 per head, which parents seem to think is good value compared to other "organised activity parties", although we don't actually arrange the party bit.

The format can change depending on what they want, age of the kids etc, but the most popular has been a 60 minute team score. This is generally because the kids are quite young (the next party is for an 8 yr old), and parents like to have an older child or adult in charge of a small group, say 4, rather than losing individuals. A score also starts and finishes at the same time.

We plan the course, produce pre-marked/bagged maps, put the kites out and meet the group at the desired time. A short tutorial on the map and nature of the competition, make it fun, wind them up so they all want to win etc Then just set them off and wait for them to come back, or wander round to offer guidance. We then present a small trophy for the winners and certificates for everyone based around the map, with contact details of the club etc.

I did the first one all on my own, it took less than an hour to put 20 kites out, similar to collect them in. I printed the maps and certificates myself and even got invited to the party afterwards

This year the timing is excellent because the party will be immediately before our evening Summer Series starts, so they'll get leaflets on that too. With roughly 20 kids x £5 you can't go wrong. Even if we don't get any new members out it we have got another group of people who now know what orienteering is, and they always think it is great fun.

[Mrs H]

What do you do about insurance?